FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

[solderdude]

Done correctly is the key here... unfortunately most people think that 'giving it a thorough listen' is doing it correctly.
The 'done correctly' needs to be specified

 

[voodooless]

The 'done correctly' needs to be specified

Yes, I think plenty of hints were already given and thoroughly ignored.

 

[solderdude]

You may have to spell it out for some folks ...
And when you do they realize it is too much hassle and keep on doing what seemed to work for them (subjective not controlled listening).
Wasted time and energy and no change in test methodology/results.

 

[mhardy6647]

In all seriousness, installing impressive and attractive capacitors in a careful manner is pretty much a do no harm form of customization.
Putting flame decals, stripes, or fancy wheels on an automobile has zero to negligible impact on performance, but it does personalize an impersonal appliance for a given user - there's no harm in that.

Note that this customized ride is a Ford Pinto...

 

[voodooless]

Putting flame decals, stripes, or fancy wheels on an automobile has zero to negligible impact on performance, but it does personalize an impersonal appliance for a given user - there's no harm in that.

But those car nuts won’t try to convince you that you get a smoother ride because of the stripes they painted on Now wheels might be another story as far as performance is concerned.

 

[mhardy6647]

Yeah, unsprung weight and all that...
Still, I see attractive caps as a feel-good, aesthetic enhancement, with which I cannot argue.

Heck, in recent years, even enterprising latter-day vacuum tube purveyors have taken the eye candy approach to their wares.
Here is a hardly random example.

Perfectly respectable vintage 6SN7 medium-mu dual triode

(specifically a 6SN7GTB made by Sylvania)

Current production 6SN7 abomination

An A-B comparison of the sonic signature of the clear vs. blue glass variants is a YouTube video just waiting to be made.
As an aside, the 'finish' of the leads soldered at the end of the pins of the above-illustrated "tennis ball" vacuum tubes is dismal.

https://blackiceaudio.com/accessories/p/psvane-6sn7

 

[voodooless]

Nothing wrong with eye candy. In fact, imho the best thing about this DAC are the VU meters!

 

[RexrothPigeon]

hearing is a sensor to determine if there is a sonic difference.

Because of the way our brains work, our ocularcentrism/biases/predispositions/etc are unavoidable and persistent. The only way to use "hearing" as a data point is to listen blind. If you are listening sighted, you are not really listening and what feels like listening to you is really a combination of seeing/thinking/expecting/imagining.

This is not particular to you or me or Larry or Mary but general to all people, and merely being aware of these biases isn't enough to defeat them.

 

[Strumbringer]

Yeah, unsprung weight and all that...
Still, I see attractive caps as a feel-good, aesthetic enhancement, with which I cannot argue.

Heck, in recent years, even enterprising latter-day vacuum tube purveyors have taken the eye candy approach to their wares.
Here is a hardly random example.

Perfectly respectable vintage 6SN7 medium-mu dual triode

(specifically a 6SN7GTB made by Sylvania)

Current production 6SN7 abomination

View attachment 498923
An A-B comparison of the sonic signature of the clear vs. blue glass variants is a YouTube video just waiting to be made.
As an aside, the 'finish' of the leads soldered at the end of the pins of the above-illustrated "tennis ball" vacuum tubes is dismal.

https://blackiceaudio.com/accessories/p/psvane-6sn7

I believe the PS Vane tubes produce a rounder sound. The one on the right is preferred when listening to the blues. The one one the left, however, produces more clarity and transparency.

 

[JRowland]

Another Suspicious Review forum where opinions count and science is out the door.

Thankfully you lay out a lot of free education for curious folks like me who lurk along and try to digest it over time. Thank you for that.

 

[Mnyb]

Unfortunately I have dx5 and I don't serially consider it as a dac, I share totally same idea with TylersEclectic. I hope this is your objective evolution rather than subjective. I expect r2r warmer much above class than DX5.

? The DX5 literally performs several thousand times better ? dB is logarithmic , much closer to the original content of the artist and production.

Subjective evaluation is very hard to do .

The DX5 is also magnitudes better than the intrinsic SQ of the content you play , the noise and distortion products in the music swamps the DAC/HP amps contributions .

Doing a proper ABX to remove bias is pita .

And for what its performance is already beyond any human perception.

Fiio have better usability re its EQ functionality and cool design . Probably better QC .

 

[Mnyb]

I litterly ment DX5, as you wrote DX5, I haven't heart Topping DX5 II be specific. To be more honest DX5 is a piece of,,,, shouldt be exited, shame on Topping. Subjective evolution not offense intended.

Oh sorry I think I quoted the wrong post when replying

? The DX5 literally performs several thousand times better ? dB is logarithmic , much closer to the original content of the artist and production.

Subjective evaluation is very hard to do .

The DX5 is also magnitudes better than the intrinsic SQ of the content you play , the noise and distortion products in the music swamps the DAC/HP amps contributions .

Doing a proper ABX to remove bias is pita .

And for what its performance is already beyond any human perception.

Fiio have better usability re its EQ functionality and cool design . Probably better QC .

 

[foden2025]

I have to admit about my brain fooling me in tube rolling, I rolled in the 6N23P and at first I thought what? there is extended treble and smoothness is gone? for two days that was the case third day recorded and compared the same tracks I listened to using stock tubes and 6N23P and I don't think there is any major change I can hear. It's not my brain got adapted to the new tubes or they are now burned-in now I don't think tubes matter much in this DAC, that's my conclusion anyway. There is some difference I sense when I run NOS for higher sample rate files vs OS using filters for 44 Hz unfortunately it's not the same tracks or mastering so it's not 1:1 comparison it's just NOS is more rolled off which I think I like.

Now I can't fight my brain or my tendency to like some "warmth" treble roll off, harmonic distortion, non linearity etc. all I'm trying to understand is why I'm preferring to like this type of sound in my music.

 

[voodooless]

all I'm trying to understand is why I'm preferring to like this type of sound in my music.

It can just be your preference. It could also be that it just matches better with your speakers and/or their room interaction at higher frequencies.

 

[robbiekhan]

Room acoustics, headphones model and speaker model (as well as type of pre-amp/power amp used) all make a big difference in the sound heard on-location yeah. System synergy probably plays a large chunk of that though for sure.

I think a lot of people online forget that and get lost in the whole measuring of the output/input signals instead, these don't mean anything when the above is factored in, and the fact that no two people will hear the same setup the same way as no two people have the same ear shapes to colour the sound going in the same way.

There comes a time when you have to just accept that objective numbers have to simply be on paper, and that is it, because what is heard by a person can be wildly different to what the numbers might forecast.

It is also worth pointing out that music recorded live does not often sound the same as that same music being played back at home, even on the most transparent of equipment. Mastering engineers apply their own bias to their productions being one thing, and as a stage photographer myself who photographs musicians at live venues from time to time, I have first hand experience of the same track live vs playing it back later after it is released - It's never the same experience, but you can get close, and to my ears I find warmth and smoothness and an expansive soundstage offering as close to reality as I recall from being there shooting the artists.

 

[voodooless]

... Says the guy who gives his subjective opinion on audio stuff in YouTube videos ...

System synergy probably plays a large chunk of that though for sure.

How does one quantify "synergy"?

the fact that no two people will hear the same setup the same way as no two people have the same ear shapes to colour the sound going in the same way.

Differences in ear shape don’t invalidate objective evaluation. Those same listeners also perceive the real world differently and adapt to their own hearing. That doesn’t make external references meaningless. Similarly, you would argue against a calibrated monitor because all people see the world differently. That doesn't make sense.

There comes a time when you have to just accept that objective numbers have to simply be on paper, and that is it, because what is heard by a person can be wildly different to what the numbers might forecast.

Except that all the science points very much to a correlation between preference and the measurements. And also, this same science points towards subjective evaluation being notoriously unreliable. Seems counterintuitive, but the former is unbiased, while the latter is not. As to electronics in general, it doesn't really matter how different people's hearing is: they can be made so well that the various models are indistinguishable to anyone. And that is essentially the engineering goal.

I don’t think anyone is against adjusting to preference. It’s just that a DAC is a very poor tool for doing so. It’s like hammering a nail with a screwdriver: it can work, but it’s crude and cumbersome.

 

[robbiekhan]

How does one quantify "synergy"?

? As in headphones that gel better with certain types of amp or speakers that sound their best with certain combos of other parts of the chain etc, that's what synergy means. You cannot quantify it, but it IS an actual condition. You cannot simply connect up any speaker to any amp for example and expect it all to sound great, regardless of how transparent the equipment may be, that's never how it has ever worked. Some speakers also sound their best in certain room conditions so a person might need to trial and error with a few models before finding what sounds right in their listening environment, again, totally irrespective of measurements.

And because of some people who populate places like ASR, the average person comes into a thread thinking they need the best measuring product and buy it without trialling other products, even though the one they got might not be the best choice for their environment or preferences, I'm sure the gist was obvious before but this just further adds context. Measurements bias does play into the psychology just as much as you pointing out subjective bias, the average person can just as easily be psychologically convinced that a transparent product sounds the best because that's what the paper numbers have told their brain and so on.

My point still stands, within the context of what has been said, measurements do not matter as there are far more important things that do matter. You can disagree, the point is still valid.

Like I said time and time before, trust your ears, if it sounds good, then nothing else matters.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

? As in headphones that gel better with certain types of amp or speakers that sound their best with certain combos of other parts of the chain etc, that's what synergy means. You cannot quantify it, but it IS an actual condition. You cannot simply connect up any speaker to any amp for example and expect it all to sound great, regardless of how transparent the equipment may be, that's never how it has ever worked. Some speakers also sound their best in certain room conditions so a person might need to trial and error with a few models before finding what sounds right in their listening environment, again, totally irrespective of measurements.

And because of some people who populate places like ASR, the average person comes into a thread thinking they need the best measuring product and buy it without trialling other products, even though the one they got might not be the best choice for their environment, I'm sure the gist was obvious before but this just further adds context.

My point still stands, within the context of what has been said, measurements do not matter as there are far more important things that do matter. You can disagree, the point is still valid.

lol there's a whole very long thread in which literally all of this has been discussed very, very amply. You should probably read it (if you are actually interested in this stuff and not intractably anti-scientific):

Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with: 1. Measurements are not everything. 2. You all never listen. 3. I trust my ears, not graphs. 4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music. 5. You all must not listen to music at all. 6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear? 7...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[robbiekhan]

I've seen a portion of that thread before, it's too long to read whole obviously, but even still I still stand by my points and this will not change. I am not anti-scientific for the record, I am a realist and have literally heard with my own ears what should sound great based on measurements that do not actually sound good to me. And that's the sole reason why I hold my view this strongly, it's taken 5 years of reading ASR to get to that point obviously but it is what it is.

People can share differing opinions and that's fine.

Edit*
You are also forgetting something quite pinnacle here, this WARMER DAC is designed from the start to ignore measurements, it's even marketed as such and the Fiio CEO interviews published by various outlets highlight the reasons as to why. Colour > Measurements as far as this DAC goes, and that too is fine as plenty of people prefer that for musical enjoyment.

 

[voodooless]

Like I said time and time before, trust your ears, if it sounds good, then nothing else matters.

Except you don't just trust your ears, do you? You only pretend that it is so.