FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

[mhardy6647]

both sound great for what they are

Meaning what exactly?

 

[robbiekhan]

It's exactly what it reads like, I did not mince words. Both sound excellent given their respective prices and specs and sit up there fairly easily with more expensive amps.

 

[raif71]

Why so? I like R2R sound (well warm, smooth and wide sound signatures, none of this sterile analytical nonsense like with the DX5 II which I also bought), had the K11 R2R and now the K13 and both sound great for what they are (especially with a power supply upgrade on the K11 R2R). This sound very much suits my headphones, speakers and preference toward how music sounds most enjoyable.

Did u get the Fiio PL50 to go with the K11 R2R? If so, appreciate how it improves the dac/amp... thanks.

 

[Soria Moria]

none of this sterile analytical nonsense like with the DX5 II which I also bought

DX5 II is a transparent sounding device. If something sounds sterile with it then it is your headphones.

 

[JSmith]

I like R2R sound (well warm, smooth and wide sound signatures, none of this sterile analytical nonsense like with the DX5 II which I also bought)

The only nonsense is this post.


JSmith

 

[robbiekhan]

Yeah sure. Been through the whole DX5 II debate before, its soundstage is compressed in a more than desirable way and it sounds too sterile for my taste, it is not the headphones nor my ears. All of the other AKM/R2R/NFCA/etc HP amps sound much more musical with enjoyable soundstage that doesn't fatigue my ears like the DX5 II did with the same headphones. If you like neutral flatness then great, I prefer my music to sound fun and musical but still have detail retention, nothing else is more important.

Did u get the Fiio PL50 to go with the K11 R2R? If so, appreciate how it improves the dac/amp... thanks.

No it was the iFi, PL50 was out of UK stock for so long I gave up on it at the time. Even so, the soundstage got a little wider and the top end spaced out a bit as well which was noticeable with most but not all music. The cheap switching power supply the K11 comes with likely isn't all that great hence the room for improvement, K13 R2R internal PSU on the other hand is all new and silent anyway so I don't know if there will be any noticeable benefits going linear on that, although I am being sent the new LPS anyway so will test it out when that time comes, December is the estimate of when that model comes out. Edit* It has no official model number yet lol.

 

[JSmith]

@robbiekhan, you're going to have to start to substantiate your claims with evidence... or cease the unsubstantiated claims. If you can provide even some basic evidence to support your assertions, we will all find it very interesting.


JSmith

 

[robbiekhan]

How do you propose substantiating soundstage and fatigue, both features that are specific to each individual person? Everyone hears both of these things differently, regardless of what any measurement under the sun /might/ try to portray.

I am sharing what I hear and that one amp causes fatigue whilst another does not. That is all I can tell you, people either accept that or they don't. it impacts me 0% how people feel about it either way.

It's like saying Tinnitus can be measured and treated, yet there is no treatment or standard measurement to gauge it, and every person who has it is impacted by it differently.

 

[mhardy6647]

It's exactly what it reads like, I did not mince words. Both sound excellent given their respective prices and specs and sit up there fairly easily with more expensive amps.

So you're saying that what it is is cheap?
Got it.

 

[LumiAudioNut]

FIIO Warmer unboxing video:

 

[robbiekhan]

Thoughts:
It's great, so much high-end sound packed into such a compact package. The instrument layering and placement is quite incredible through my speakers especially, seems it pairs very nicely with the rest of my setup.

 

[Soria Moria]

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Thoughts:
It's great, so much high-end sound packed into such a compact package. The instrument layering and placement is quite incredible through my speakers especially, seems it pairs very nicely with the rest of my setup.

What camera are you using? The pictures look quite lovely

 

[robbiekhan]

What camera are you using? The pictures look quite lovely

Canon 5D4 with the 35mm 1.4 L II lens - The RAW colour grading is my own signature though.

 

[Mezz17]

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Thoughts:
It's great, so much high-end sound packed into such a compact package. The instrument layering and placement is quite incredible through my speakers especially, seems it pairs very nicely with the rest of my setup.

That is a nice setup, i love Triangle Speakers. Also waiting for my Warmer unit, can't wait to connect it to my K17 and FT7.

 

[Jeromeof]

I think this Warmer DAC is really not for ASR , but I must admit I do love how it looks and I sort of get the idea also.

I feel it is like a 'new' vintage car (my neighbor has one) but for Audio. It is not about the transparent 'performance' it is about giving the owner the feel that they are using something traditional (yet 'new'), I imagine paired with a nice turnable it will sound 'perfect' to many people. But as I said I don't think those chasing perfect transparent performance will appreciate it. If you are going to do R2R and Tubes why not double down on that side of the market.

I do think its clever what FiiO are doing both with this and the new K13R2R (and the K11/K15/K17) basically covering all aspects of the market with different gear that should appeal to either objective and subjective users (depending on the device).

 

[SMen]

I think this Warmer DAC is really not for ASR , but I must admit I do love how it looks and I sort of get the idea also.

I feel it is like a 'new' vintage car (my neighbor has one) but for Audio. It is not about the transparent 'performance' it is about giving the owner the feel that they are using something traditional (yet 'new'), I imagine paired with a nice turnable it will sound 'perfect' to many people. But as I said I don't think those chasing perfect transparent performance will appreciate it. If you are going to do R2R and Tubes why not double down on that side of the market.

I do think its clever what FiiO are doing both with this and the new K13R2R (and the K11/K15/K17) basically covering all aspects of the market with different gear that should appeal to either objective and subjective users (depending on the device).

It looks like they have gone fully balanced with the 4 tubes I am presuming. I do find this variation between the likes of the K15/K17 and their R2Rs interesting also.

That's a whole lot of marketing fluff for what’s basically a starved-plate trick. Plus minus 28V on an E88CC? That tube is meant to see around 90 to 100V at the very least, and it’s normally run well over 150 to 200V in proper audio gear. At 28 volts you’re not getting sweet, organic tube richness, you’re getting a tube that’s working miles outside its intended range.

At those voltages you end up with tiny headroom, extra distortion, and pretty much none of the real linearity the E88CC is known for. It’s more of a glowing decoration than a tube actually doing what it was designed to do.

And hyping up imported JJ valves doesn’t change the fact that the circuit isn’t giving them the voltage they need to perform properly. If they wanted a real tube buffer, they’d use a proper high-voltage supply, not this low-voltage gimmick dressed up as audio magic.

Is a "starved-plate trick" a way of just using the valves for a certain kind of distortion? This is really my question here.

Can't imagine why they would want to do do away with 'positive tube qualities' ... but I can't wait to see the stack of reviews coming (elsewhere) about tube warmth! Why can't they talk about compression and dynamics instead! I'm interested to understand more about the correct voltage for the E88CC.

 

[mhardy6647]

Is a "starved-plate trick" a way of just using the valves for a certain kind of distortion? This is really my question here.

Practically speaking, yes, that is generally why it's done (in an instrument amplifier).
That being said, it is possible to operate a tube like an ECC88 E88CC at low plate voltage ("space charge" mode), which, if memory serves, will render it a very weak amplifier (relative to its capabilities at recommended plate voltage and current) but, within severe limitations, not horrifically nonlinear. The tubes in such a case would be essentially useless (i.e., pointless); you probably wouldn't want to listen to a DAC output that sounded like Keith Richards' guitar.

Here is a classic gizmo offering a tuneable output distortion profile - but aimed at "hifi" -- ahem -- I mean, home audio rather than rock 'n' roll musicians.

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Radio-Electronics/90s/1994/EN-1994-06.pdf

article starts on pg. 33 of the magazine.
Note this, from the article (by Paia founder/owner, the late John Simonton)

In the case of the Fiio DAC: My guess is the tubes are there mostly for bragging rights - not an uncommon phenomenon in cheap vacuum tube boxes that became popular a couple of decades ago. It may have a little of Simonton's "tube warmth" dialed in, too, though.

 

[mhardy6647]

... and this (from the same article)

Note that the Paia "Tubehead" uses the ECC83 (12AX7) twin triode as its "effects generator" as opposed to the Fiio's E88CC (which is a variant of the ECC88/6922/6DJ8 6 V heater, high-mu twin triode and not all that different than an ECC83).

 

[LumiAudioNut]

Unless I somehow missed it earlier, FIIO just added the specifications, and more importantly, measurements for their FIIO Warmer.

Everything can be found here: https://www.fiio.com/WARMERR2R_parameters (make sure to scroll to the bottom of the page for the measurements).

A few excerpts (please see webpage linked above for the full list):

LO 10KΩ

Test conditions: -5dB sinusoidal signal, 20Hz-20kHz,

RCA line output (10kΩ load)

Test conditions: -7dB sinusoidal signal, RCA line output (10kΩ load)

 

[mhardy6647]

Brimming with second HD -- no matter whether SE (unbalanced) or balanced output. The 1k distortion Spectra look more or less identical for unbalanced or balanced output... is that even possible?