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FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

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You are then using a steep filter in HQ player you basically shift the ultrasonic 'crap' above 96kHz and the unwanted signals will thus be attenuated a little by the slow roll-off of the post filter. The steep filter in HQ player could be slightly better than the one in the DAC or could be similar (would have to be measured).
In this case there is NO benefit when using 'NOS' operation as the filter you try to avoid (which basically is essential for a proper waveform reconstruction) is basically performed by HQ player. You turn the NOS into OS when using HQ player.
The non linearities in the DAC (including the spray of harmonics as well as the distortion from the tube buffer) remains the same.
You thus get no roll-off (and no 'NOS' sound) and simply get the same performance as if you would be using this DAC in OS mode.
 
I think many use/abuse HQ player to sort of ”replace” the DAC’s own filters ? Believes it’s audibly better ?
May be theoretically true as you can employ a whole computer’s floating point math to do this ? Rob -300dB Watts would approve .

But as can bee seen in here at ASR most of the on chip filters seems to be problem free .

HQ player can do a lot of things and seems versatile in all kind of ways, but still a popular use/abuse seems to be to “improve” on the filters in your DAC .

And consequently some DAC’s are half done simply because this kind of use is sometimes assumed .

You send high rate PCM or DSD to the DAC .

Personally I don’t think this kind of obsession is necessary, just use a well designed DS DAC as intended .

And I think some got to creative and do spec parameter's that are audible :) a sort of self fulfilling prophecy tweak enough and it “works”
 
I think many use/abuse HQ player to sort of ”replace” the DAC’s own filters ? Believes it’s audibly better ?
May be theoretically true as you can employ a whole computer’s floating point math to do this ? Rob -300dB Watts would approve .

But as can bee seen in here at ASR most of the on chip filters seems to be problem free .

HQ player can do a lot of things and seems versatile in all kind of ways, but still a popular use/abuse seems to be to “improve” on the filters in your DAC .

And consequently some DAC’s are half done simply because this kind of use is sometimes assumed .

You send high rate PCM or DSD to the DAC .

Personally I don’t think this kind of obsession is necessary, just use a well designed DS DAC as intended .

And I think some got to creative and do spec parameter's that are audible :) a sort of self fulfilling prophecy tweak enough and it “works”
This idea mostly comes from GoldenSound. He recommends using NOS DACs and leaving all reconstruction filtering to HQPlayer, based on the belief that having only one digital filter is better than two, since multiple filters would supposedly add their own “character” and mangle the sound. Whether true or not, this line of thinking has become incredibly common in audio circles lately.
 
I think many use/abuse HQ player to sort of ”replace” the DAC’s own filters ? Believes it’s audibly better ?
May be theoretically true as you can employ a whole computer’s floating point math to do this ? Rob -300dB Watts would approve .

But as can bee seen in here at ASR most of the on chip filters seems to be problem free .

HQ player can do a lot of things and seems versatile in all kind of ways, but still a popular use/abuse seems to be to “improve” on the filters in your DAC .

And consequently some DAC’s are half done simply because this kind of use is sometimes assumed .

You send high rate PCM or DSD to the DAC .

Personally I don’t think this kind of obsession is necessary, just use a well designed DS DAC as intended .

And I think some got to creative and do spec parameter's that are audible :) a sort of self fulfilling prophecy tweak enough and it “works”
HQPlayer have much better selection of filters compared to what I experienced in the SMSL DAC and I was able to tailor it sound I like and upsampling I want. Regarding DS DAC believe me I tried the SMSL RAW DAC I liked it at the beginning but by time it got fatiguing for music, no complaints for movies it's clean and transparent and reliable. However my first experience with R2R DAC here I liked the sound maybe I like harmonic distortion, same experience with tubes.
 
That is flawed logic, because you don’t have just one filter.
You know how the audiophile belief system works:

Digital - bad
Filter - bad.
Less digital + less filter = better.

We know this is wrong in 99% of cases, but good luck changing anyone's mind once that narrative has taken hold.

Even in this thread, people insist on describing R-2R DACs as 'warm' and 'fluffy,' and claim that a tube output stage somehow improves the sound just because it has higher distortion. Even with tubes those R-2R dacs have distortion levels way below audible threshold. Better reconstruction filters don't really change the sound compared to generic ones that come with ESS chips or AKM chips.
 
Even in this thread, people insist on describing R-2R DACs as 'warm' and 'fluffy,' and claim that a tube output stage somehow improves the sound just because it has higher distortion. Even with tubes those R-2R dacs have distortion levels way below audible threshold. Better reconstruction filters don't really change the sound compared to generic ones that come with ESS chips or AKM chips.
These claims very much remind me of the usual discussions in musician circles.

You know, the usual fierce fights over what is "better". Analog vs digital. Tube vs transistor distortion. Recorded vs. direct sound straight from the instruments. You have similar personality types as in audiophile circles, and it's all a bit amplified because the personalities tend to be even more pronounced, and especially more emotional. Weird people all around (me included lol).

You have the frugal ones who simply use what they have and can afford. Laptop kids, cheap Casio keyboards, old synths. Then those with more money using half a dozen digital, analog, and hybrid synths together costing more than a sports car. And everything inbetween.

And the general consensus always is: just do it, don't worry, get into creative freeflow and great things will happen. Another consensus: "warm" really means muffled.

Of course in every little bubble and friend group there's always that one guy, usually a basement dweller with questionable morality, who swears by one thing, usually "omg you guys with your software, I'll show you the incredible power of analog!", who then proceeds to post the most vile, awful, overprocessed, unpleasant sounding piece of music imaginable. A real sonic mess that doesn't even have a catchy groove. And everyone has a laugh. Meanwhile, the new laptop kid is the only one proceeding to actually release stuff and eventually play live and earn money and get a well paid job in the industry, in three years from nothing. It's beautiful to watch. (⁠◍⁠•⁠ᴗ⁠•⁠◍⁠)⁠❤

The parallel to audiophilia is, those who get obsessed with their niche thing (let's say "omg tube R2R is the best ever lol) beyond any reason, are the ones who tend to enjoy the least. The delusion gets in the way, while they could've simply enjoyed great music with bog standard DACs all this time. The obsession and weird mental needs to somehow prove a superiority results in less enjoyment. The "laptop kid", meanwhile, had a blast all this time. Because the metaphorical laptop with good enough specs is all you need.
 
As there is a quite a bit discussion on this thread about the process of vacuum tube “burn in”, I thought I should bring up the (hopefully obvious) fact that vacuum tubes are a mature technology and is, at this point in time, reasonably well understood from an engineering standpoint.

Not only is tube burn in real, back in when this technology dominated much of the electronic industry, companies wouldn’t ship vacuum tubes to the customer until they had been thoroughly burned in at the factory (they had machines that could burn in hundred or, in some cases, thousands of vac tubes at a time. How long does burn in take? Of course, the answer is that it depends on the type, composition, and munufacturing process of the vacuum tube but usually varies from 10s to couple 100s of hours

What is burn in? The short answer is the removal of crud off the cathode.

The long answer can be elucidated by reading this excellent, but easily understood article linked below (all credit goes to the author’s):


Some excerpts from the above linked article:

What will burn-in do?​

It seems virtually everything which can go wrong with a tube, will be less of a problem after burn in. It improves the cathode, the vacuum, the mica, cleans the metals, activates the getter, and even makes the glass at the inside anti static. Almost anything, you name it, and burn in will do it. The longer a tube was stored, the more it is going to benefit from burn in.

In short, burn-in starts these processes:​

  • Increase the emission, by evaporating contamination from the cathode surface.
  • Make the cathode surface more homogeneous (emission wise), reducing noise.
  • Make the tube curves overall better, reducing distortion.
  • Clean the grids partially, for more stabile bias.
  • Clean the mica, for less sputter or pop noise.
  • Loosen too tight connections between mica and metal parts, for less microphonics.
  • Improve the vacuum for less noise and closer factory specifications. (See Note3).
  • Harsh sound will disappear, this is due to all the above effects together.

About the purpose burn in.​

In tube production, it comes down to one thing, and that is keeping contamination away from the cathode. In a working tube, such contamination at first will be a positively charged ion in vacuum. As the working anode is positively charged,it pushes such ions away in all directions. Some land on the glass, recombine there with an electron, and in case the ion was not a gas, the resulting molecule will stay on the glass. Over time, the glass gets darker. Some other part will land on cathode, and compromise the emission. Some elememts don't do much damage, such as carbon, but others like Chromium are real emission killers. How to get rid of this? One way is designing the cathode a little bit too hot by default. That will slowly evaporate the contamination, but also wears out the cathode faster. Another process is to add emission enhancers to the Cathode coating. In the powder mixture, some small part of the Barium is always replaced by Aluminum and Strontium, because aluminium is a ideal emission starter of new born tubes, and Strontium generally enhances emission during the rest of the tube life. However that is not just doping it with fractions. In fact this requires so much Aluminum and Strontium, that the Barium content becomes significantly lower. Yet, such tubes work initially better, and even tolerate a lot of contamination. They also have a much shorter formatting period (something like burn in, but not the same). On top of that, they need less burn in, and most of them will keep the desired specifications right from the beginning very well. All of this works very nice. Apart from one thing: There is substantially less Barium in the cathode mixture. However the Barium is the heart and soul of the tube. This is the substance which gets used up by simply using the tube, and there is no other way. Less Barium depot means less life time.

The purpose of burn in.​

In short, this brings the new tubes closer to their final specifications. It should be clear, that only after THIS CONDITION was reached, it makes sense to do the matching. Not somewhere half way, and for sure not match tube right out of the factory boxes.

The burn in effect has a tendency to disappear, most of all with low Barium content tubes. Though with such, due to the higher doping, it will restore again faster. This explains the observations of some tube doctors, demonstrating with a white doctor's coat on youtube, how they burn in tubes by over heating them with a normal tube tester. Telling how well this works. But is this really so....? Just do the math. Suppose he burns in 120 tubes, on his tube tester, and lets each tube run only 2 hours. Like this it takes him one day to burn in a quad, and it will take him a full month to do the 120 tubes and get 30 quads. So he will be tempted to compromise on the burn in time, which in this example was low already. And since such tubes burn in relatively fast, it's probably done like he says indeed.

ei5-150.jpg
When working with NOS and other more expensive tubes, these have generally a higher Barium content, so less Aluminum and Strontium, and lower cathode temperature. To make this possible, also higher base quality of the materials. Burn in of such tubes takes so much longer, nobody can seriously do this on a normal tube tester. It needs a device which can do many at a time. In the old days of tube production, the factories did 1000's at a time, filling complete factory floors. This picture is from the EI factory
 
This idea mostly comes from GoldenSound. He recommends using NOS DACs and leaving all reconstruction filtering to HQPlayer, based on the belief that having only one digital filter is better than two, since multiple filters would supposedly add their own “character” and mangle the sound. Whether true or not, this line of thinking has become incredibly common in audio circles lately.
I don't think Cameron coined that idea. This line of thinking (as well as HQ player) was around way before Cameron started his website.
The whole 'character' explanation (if he said that) is wrong and for 'his readers' but he is right to recommend using a filterless R2R DAC with upsampling using HQ player for instance (or any other decent upsampler).

Also Cameron is correct in that when you have a filter-less R2R DAC (or sample-hold simulating DS DAC) and want to use this DAC it is best to only use anything above 88.2kHz.
This way there still is a proper reconstruction filter (unless one is silly enough to choose a 'slow' filter) and the 'stairsteps' will be smaller in amplitude AND higher up in the frequency band. 176.4/192 is even better (smaller steps moving the mirror images > 100kHz where the always present post filter will lower them considerable more.
Of course, assuming the source is either 44.1 or 48kHz.

A side effect is that the 'roll-off' will start higher up outside of the audible band.

Effectively replacing the reconstruction filter (even from a DS DAC) with the one from HQ player.
Even with OS DACs this trick works. When one has a (DS) DAC with a fixed filter setting that is rather poor (slow type for instance) you can basically replace that poor filter with a sharp one from HQ player increasing signal fidelity.
I will stay away from any of that being audible but to young people it might.

Now that this is out of the way...

Most (filterless) R2R design lovers seem to like the roll-off (which is not the same as a simple RC filter) and in most cases this will not cause problems further downstream, but potentially could in some cases.
When you upsample you remove that effect and the 'filter sound' one thinks one should and is avoiding is simply replaced by another filter.
Now there is NO point in using a filterless DAC any more. THE reason is simply removed.

The reason why some still prefer a filterless DAC using oversampling (what they want to avoid but are still using) is likely found in psycho-acoustics or the addition of noise (the harmonics and IM products) caused by non-linearity of the R2R DAC. Some of those are very well performing and are 'transparent' b.t.w.
Not so for the warmer DAC. That one reaches audible levels.
One should remember that the effect of non-linearity becomes worse the lower the signal level is (signed magnitude is better).

For the tube effect it differs. These only have lower harmonics and they increase in level with amplitude. So for lower signal levels (and music always is mostly lower level) the distortion by the tube will be lower than that of the R2R non-linearity so there is no 'effect'.

The fact that FiiO only quotes measurements at -6dB makes me suspect that around 0dBFS there might be a ton of distortion and that may be why they chose not to list numbers/plots at 0dB FS but rather -6dB. Time will tell when someone measures it (Cameron ? or if someone that sends one to Amir).

And about the tube buffer and 'burn-in' .... the article is right about the effects when speaking about power tubes (especially the matching or bias adjusting) but for a simple cathode follower this is non-consequential.
Also the 'bass response' won't magically improve with 'burn-in'.
Noise might lower a bit BUT the R2R non-linearity will dwarf that noise, distortion might be a smidgen lower but will be dwarfed by the non-linearity of the R2R conversion.
 
I don't think Cameron coined that idea. This line of thinking (as well as HQ player) was around way before Cameron started his website.
The whole 'character' explanation (if he said that) is wrong and for 'his readers' but he is right to recommend using a filterless R2R DAC with upsampling using HQ player for instance (or any other decent upsampler).

Also Cameron is correct in that when you have a filter-less R2R DAC (or sample-hold simulating DS DAC) and want to use this DAC it is best to only use anything above 88.2kHz.
This way there still is a proper reconstruction filter (unless one is silly enough to choose a 'slow' filter) and the 'stairsteps' will be smaller in amplitude AND higher up in the frequency band. 176.4/192 is even better (smaller steps moving the mirror images > 100kHz where the always present post filter will lower them considerable more.
Of course, assuming the source is either 44.1 or 48kHz.

A side effect is that the 'roll-off' will start higher up outside of the audible band.

Effectively replacing the reconstruction filter (even from a DS DAC) with the one from HQ player.
Even with OS DACs this trick works. When one has a (DS) DAC with a fixed filter setting that is rather poor (slow type for instance) you can basically replace that poor filter with a sharp one from HQ player increasing signal fidelity.
I will stay away from any of that being audible but to young people it might.
Cameron popularized this through his videos and Discord server, I believe. It only became a talking point in head-fi circles after him and I've been following these forums for around 10 years.

To be clear, I'm not saying he's wrong. I worded my previous message carefully around that. The issue is that he assumes everything is audible and draws conclusions that are numerically correct but in practice almost never have any audible impact. Like many people craving relevance and influence, he's hunting for unturned stones in audio, speculating about "audible improvements" that are technically valid on paper but practically irrelevant to what you actually hear. That's his whole shtick. He is fronting himself as someone who is building bridges between "subjectivity" and "objectivity" but in fact he is just pushing an agenda where everything is audible and we need to obsess about every freaking detail in our audio chain without really proving any his points. If you corner him with questions in a public forum or in his own server, he will give you very grounded, very reasonable answers, however you can see his true opinions if you join his telegram channel.
 
To be clear, I'm not saying he's wrong. I worded my previous message carefully around that. The issue is that he assumes everything is audible and draws conclusions that are numerically correct but in practice almost never have any audible impact. Like many people craving relevance and influence, he's hunting for unturned stones in audio, speculating about "audible improvements" that are technically valid on paper but practically irrelevant to what you actually hear. That's his whole shtick. He is fronting himself as someone who is building bridges between "subjectivity" and "objectivity" but in fact he is just pushing an agenda where everything is audible and we need to obsess about every freaking detail in our audio chain without really proving any his points. If you corner him with questions in a public forum or in his own server, he will give you very grounded, very reasonable answers, however you can see his true opinions if you join his telegram channel.
Agreed 100%.

He may have popularized it but the guy from HQ player made similar claims even before Cameron started his website.

The fact that we have not seen the 'promised' follow up on him hearing differences between DACs while owning gear that could help him show this is very telling.
 
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1765903968824.png


First experience with tube rolling, was a bit of a fun side-quest of sorts I guess too.

It's too early to be 100% about everything, but sub-bass extension is immediately obvious now even after 500+ hours of listening to the stock tubes. The same bass-heavy tracks I've been listening to for the past year when testing headphones/speakers etc have that extra slam that wasn't as prominent with the JJ tubes.

I will ask FiiO over at headfi how much influence the engineering implementation has on the other areas of the sound as opposed to just tube distortion harmonics, this will confirm if what I am hearing is indeed because of the tube upgrade.

For clarity, I am more than happy with how the stock configuration sounds now with so many hundreds of hours spent listening to it. So any "upgrade" is merely a bonus on top of what for my sound preferences is already very musical/warm or however someone wants to coin it. In my chain of connected gear, everything seems to have gelled really nicely and sounds distinctly musical and enjoyable, and that's all I ever cared about.

As there is a quite a bit discussion on this thread about the process of vacuum tube “burn in”, I thought I should bring up the (hopefully obvious) fact that vacuum tubes are a mature technology and is, at this point in time, reasonably well understood from an engineering standpoint.

Not only is tube burn in real, back in when this technology dominated much of the electronic industry, companies wouldn’t ship vacuum tubes to the customer until they had been thoroughly burned in at the factory (they had machines that could burn in hundred or, in some cases, thousands of vac tubes at a time. How long does burn in take? Of course, the answer is that it depends on the type, composition, and munufacturing process of the vacuum tube but usually varies from 10s to couple 100s of hours

What is burn in? The short answer is the removal of crud off the cathode.

The long answer can be elucidated by reading this excellent, but easily understood article linked below (all credit goes to the author’s):


Some excerpts from the above linked article:

What will burn-in do?​

It seems virtually everything which can go wrong with a tube, will be less of a problem after burn in. It improves the cathode, the vacuum, the mica, cleans the metals, activates the getter, and even makes the glass at the inside anti static. Almost anything, you name it, and burn in will do it. The longer a tube was stored, the more it is going to benefit from burn in.

In short, burn-in starts these processes:​

  • Increase the emission, by evaporating contamination from the cathode surface.
  • Make the cathode surface more homogeneous (emission wise), reducing noise.
  • Make the tube curves overall better, reducing distortion.
  • Clean the grids partially, for more stabile bias.
  • Clean the mica, for less sputter or pop noise.
  • Loosen too tight connections between mica and metal parts, for less microphonics.
  • Improve the vacuum for less noise and closer factory specifications. (See Note3).
  • Harsh sound will disappear, this is due to all the above effects together.

About the purpose burn in.​

In tube production, it comes down to one thing, and that is keeping contamination away from the cathode. In a working tube, such contamination at first will be a positively charged ion in vacuum. As the working anode is positively charged,it pushes such ions away in all directions. Some land on the glass, recombine there with an electron, and in case the ion was not a gas, the resulting molecule will stay on the glass. Over time, the glass gets darker. Some other part will land on cathode, and compromise the emission. Some elememts don't do much damage, such as carbon, but others like Chromium are real emission killers. How to get rid of this? One way is designing the cathode a little bit too hot by default. That will slowly evaporate the contamination, but also wears out the cathode faster. Another process is to add emission enhancers to the Cathode coating. In the powder mixture, some small part of the Barium is always replaced by Aluminum and Strontium, because aluminium is a ideal emission starter of new born tubes, and Strontium generally enhances emission during the rest of the tube life. However that is not just doping it with fractions. In fact this requires so much Aluminum and Strontium, that the Barium content becomes significantly lower. Yet, such tubes work initially better, and even tolerate a lot of contamination. They also have a much shorter formatting period (something like burn in, but not the same). On top of that, they need less burn in, and most of them will keep the desired specifications right from the beginning very well. All of this works very nice. Apart from one thing: There is substantially less Barium in the cathode mixture. However the Barium is the heart and soul of the tube. This is the substance which gets used up by simply using the tube, and there is no other way. Less Barium depot means less life time.

The purpose of burn in.​

In short, this brings the new tubes closer to their final specifications. It should be clear, that only after THIS CONDITION was reached, it makes sense to do the matching. Not somewhere half way, and for sure not match tube right out of the factory boxes.

The burn in effect has a tendency to disappear, most of all with low Barium content tubes. Though with such, due to the higher doping, it will restore again faster. This explains the observations of some tube doctors, demonstrating with a white doctor's coat on youtube, how they burn in tubes by over heating them with a normal tube tester. Telling how well this works. But is this really so....? Just do the math. Suppose he burns in 120 tubes, on his tube tester, and lets each tube run only 2 hours. Like this it takes him one day to burn in a quad, and it will take him a full month to do the 120 tubes and get 30 quads. So he will be tempted to compromise on the burn in time, which in this example was low already. And since such tubes burn in relatively fast, it's probably done like he says indeed.

ei5-150.jpg
When working with NOS and other more expensive tubes, these have generally a higher Barium content, so less Aluminum and Strontium, and lower cathode temperature. To make this possible, also higher base quality of the materials. Burn in of such tubes takes so much longer, nobody can seriously do this on a normal tube tester. It needs a device which can do many at a time. In the old days of tube production, the factories did 1000's at a time, filling complete factory floors. This picture is from the EI factory

That's an excellent read and confirms what I have been hearing as the stock JJ tubes have aged over the last few hundred hours of use.

Edit*

I have asked the supplier of the tubes if the matching was done on fresh tubes or ones they burned in, as this info is not clear!
 
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First experience with tube rolling, was a bit of a fun side-quest of sorts I guess too.

It's too early to be 100% about everything, but sub-bass extension is immediately obvious now even after 500+ hours of listening to the stock tubes. The same bass-heavy tracks I've been listening to for the past year when testing headphones/speakers etc have that extra slam that wasn't as prominent with the JJ tubes.

I will ask FiiO over at headfi how much influence the engineering implementation has on the other areas of the sound as opposed to just tube distortion harmonics, this will confirm if what I am hearing is indeed because of the tube upgrade.

For clarity, I am more than happy with how the stock configuration sounds now with so many hundreds of hours spent listening to it. So any "upgrade" is merely a bonus on top of what for my sound preferences is already very musical/warm or however someone wants to coin it. In my chain of connected gear, everything seems to have gelled really nicely and sounds distinctly musical and enjoyable, and that's all I ever cared about.



That's an excellent read and confirms what I have been hearing as the stock JJ tubes have aged over the last few hundred hours of use.

Edit*

I have asked the supplier of the tubes if the matching was done on fresh tubes or ones they burned in, as this info is not clear!
.
Alrighty, then. By the way, it really is not necessary to wear gloves when handling tubes. Fingerprints won’t hurt a thing.
.
 
First experience with tube rolling, was a bit of a fun side-quest of sorts I guess too.
For the difference in bass rolloff you have experienced, can you measure them similar to what I did here?
Because in my case with a tube buffered preamp, linearity didn't change between vacuum tubes, but distortions certainly did.
 
Alrighty, then. By the way, it really is not necessary to wear gloves when handling tubes. Fingerprints won’t hurt a thing.

It's a habit of routine when working on components whether at home, on the car or wherever really.

For the difference in bass rolloff you have experienced, can you measure them similar to what I did here?
Because in my case with a tube buffered preamp, linearity didn't change between vacuum tubes, but distortions certainly did.

I don't have access to an interface to measure with I'm afraid.
 
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Don't want to stir the discussion on something else but I think HQPlayer is highly customizable with upsampling it's hard to do what I did with a DAC, to avoid the ultrasonic noises in 44Hz content, I upsampled to 384K using filters and Dither but kept higher sampled PCM and DSD files with no filtering but per Roon it's still using a Dither NS4. I'm not affiliated with them and I would say the difference between filters is not night and day it just helps with treble sensitive ppl like me I guess.
 
Please forgive my heavy scepticism, but "extended bass" from exchanged tubes sounds like big nonsense. The tube model does not matter at all in that regard, but the circuit does. Never ever have I heard of any tubes, let alone compatible types, differing in bass or subbass linearity.

I'm happy to admit having been wrong about the above the moment I see actual proof thru measurements. Until then, skepticism remains strong. Since when is highpass behaviour a common characteristic of tubes?
 
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