FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

[Sliphorn]

It's the jacket! That is DJ Jack Gale. He was receiving the keys to the city from mayor Thomas D'Alesandro Jr.

REELRADIO - The Jack Gale Collection!

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The first photo at the top of the reelradio page, he looks like Babe Ruth! Middle photo like a generic Joe and the last photo like a mobbed up wise guy. Chameleon Gale!
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[4Real]

DACs have no idea what music is. They exist to convert digital into analog. We have zero difficulty identifying the accuracy (fidelity) of that conversion, and it has no influence from the room, the speakers, the listener's position, what they ate for breakfast that day, their astrological sign, etc.

A DAC is not a musical device. It has one job: to convert digital to analog. If it converts accurately, then the signal it outputs is identical to the signal it receives. If its output signal diverges from its input signal in audible ways, it is bad at its job and interfering with the audio before it reaches the listener: essentially, it is an effects box.

"It has one job: to convert digital to analog"
simply not true. The conversion is ONE of the jobs.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

"It has one job: to convert digital to analog"
simply not true. The conversion is ONE of the jobs.

Nope, that's it. Of course many DACs on the market also have other functions and features, but the DAC itself has one job and one job only.

 

[foden2025]

Received mine two days ago and I have to say night and day difference in my system to SMSL RAW DAC which is in a box now up for sale. The DAC gets hot though measured 88-100 degree after around 7 hours of play.

 

[Svend P]

Received mine two days ago and I have to say night and day difference in my system to SMSL RAW DAC which is in a box now up for sale. The DAC gets hot though measured 88-100 degree after around 7 hours of play.

Please try a level matched blind test before you sell the SMSL. Odds are you can't detect any difference.

 

[Ropeburn]

Please try a level matched blind test before you sell the SMSL. Odds are you can't detect any difference.

There will be a difference when the heat does its thing. Advantage: silence has no noise whatsoever. I really hope above temperatures are °F, not °C...

 

[Mnyb]

We desperately need our DAC difference dumping tread back so mods can shuffle all this nonsense there as they used to do for a couple of years .

@RickS Maybe not open to replies but as a garbage bin ?

Edit:

Read this 547 page long tread first then comment about audible differences in DAC's .

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[SMen]

We desperately need our DAC difference dumping tread back so mods can shuffle all this nonsense there as they used to do for a couple of years .

@RickS Maybe not open to replies but as a garbage bin ?

Edit:

Read this 547 page long tread first then comment about audible differences in DAC's .

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Surely you should be saying that we need a dumping thread for differences between output stages?

So because all valve output stages sound the same as all solid state output stages, any comments relating to perceptions of sound quality differences between these should be put there by moderators. Is this correct?

Post edit: I should have said "measure the same" instead of "sound the same", but I am not sure that is the case either.

 

[solderdude]

So because all valve output stages sound the same as all solid state output stages, any comments relating to perceptions of sound quality differences between these should be put there by moderators. Is this correct?

Post edit: I should have said "measure the same" instead of "sound the same", but I am not sure that is the case either.

Tube output stages measure different from SS output stages and deliberately alter the output signal by adding harmonic AND intermodulation products.
Note: while lower harmonic distortion usually is benign (and not very audible) the intermodulation is NEVER harmonically 'pleasing'.

There isn't a single DAC that measures the same but there are plenty that are audibly indistinguishable in a well performed blind test.
Many of those will 'sound different' to owners .... just not for the reasons they think it sounds different.

So... depending on what the output stage of a DAC is designed for they will measure and can sound different.
Without a shadow of a doubt SS output stages have MUCH better signal fidelity even when they are designed to roll-off the upper treble gently.

 

[SMen]

Tube output stages measure different from SS output stages and deliberately alter the output signal by adding harmonic AND intermodulation products.
Note: while lower harmonic distortion usually is benign (and not very audible) the intermodulation is NEVER harmonically 'pleasing'.

There isn't a single DAC that measures the same but there are plenty that are audibly indistinguishable in a well performed blind test.
Many of those will 'sound different' to owners .... just not for the reasons they think it sounds different.

So... depending on what the output stage of a DAC is designed for they will measure and can sound different.
Without a shadow of a doubt SS output stages have MUCH better signal fidelity even when they are designed to roll-off the upper treble gently.

Yes, totally agree and what you have said is totally reasonable.

I have not been able to listen to lots of DACs but my expectation is for no meaningful difference between delta sigmas unless something else is wrong, or engineered to be different. However, I think this R2R Warmer has been obviously engineered to sound different using the valve buffer, and I would actually expect people to hear this in comparison to solid state delta sigma DACs. Seems a fair enough expectation to me.

FiiO's own measurements suggest the Warmer does not measure so well, and differently to the DS chips - though calling it "Warmer" is most certainly (blatently) encouraging bias! Thankfully it won't fit under my tv ... and does not have balance control for dodgy voice broadcasts.

 

[solderdude]

The most obvious difference in sound will be the filter-less option (Not the R2R part which is an expensive gimmick really).

The tube harmonics (and thus tube sound) most likely are not the ones that will determine the sound unless there is an additional roll-off in the treble on top of the filterless sound option.
The harmonic spray of the (not very well performing) R2R DAC is just slightly lower and these are also higher harmonic as well and to the sound they might be dominant over that what tubes could bring near 0dBFS.
Tube buffer circuits (I assume simple cathode followers) don't add that much distortion and given the spec say 0.053% = -65dB this peaks out just barely 10dB above the high amounts of DAC distortion.
They will probably be mostly 3rd harmonic anyway given the balanced nature and not the 'famous' 2nd harmonics.
So this means the tubes won't be adding something in reality, but of course people will hear it.


Will need to see measurements though and they are suspiciously absent till now.
Have only seen measurements of the R2R DAC section and loads of subjective observations.

 

[oleg87]

Yes, totally agree and what you have said is totally reasonable.

I have not been able to listen to lots of DACs but my expectation is for no meaningful difference between delta sigmas unless something else is wrong, or engineered to be different. However, I think this R2R Warmer has been obviously engineered to sound different using the valve buffer, and I would actually expect people to hear this in comparison to solid state delta sigma DACs. Seems a fair enough expectation to me.

FiiO's own measurements suggest the Warmer does not measure so well, and differently to the DS chips - though calling it "Warmer" is most certainly (blatently) encouraging bias! Thankfully it won't fit under my tv ... and does not have balance control for dodgy voice broadcasts.

I think it would be discernable in a controlled comparison, but I think it's worth keeping in mind the magnitude of the real differences relative to the illusory ones. If non-lineariaties are kept 60dB under the signal, a "day and night" difference in realistic music playback is almost certainly illusory unless the FiiO-provided data is missing something big. This is a difference towards the margins of perceptibility that I would have to "squint" to hear in a controlled comparison, and the Klippel data suggests this is what most people should expect.

 

[Curupira]

FiiO's own measurements suggest the Warmer does not measure so well, and differently to the DS chips - though calling it "Warmer" is most certainly (blatently) encouraging bias! Thankfully it won't fit under my tv ... and does not have balance control for dodgy voice broadcasts.

You can easily mimic the most blatant effects from the DAC, aside from IMD, following an objective end result perspective with some plugins and EQ.

For the Harmonics: Wait for the APx measurements and mimic the harmonics using a VST plugin like the PKHarmonic VST project. I've explained how for another user before.

For the NOS: simply add a -3dB highshelf filter after 10 khz (or just use tone controls). Euphony without compromising the necessary OS process.

Of course, once you dissect things in this manner, most of the magic will be gone, because you'll know what it entails, exactly.

 

[solderdude]

For the NOS: simply add a -3dB highshelf filter after 10 khz (or just use tone controls). Euphony without compromising the necessary OS process.

The roll-off from filterless DACs is not the same as a highshelf.
On average it is but momentary the roll-off could be more or less so the effect is not the same.
Of course it will give some idea of how that will sound.

 

[Curupira]

The roll-off from filterless DACs is not the same as a highshelf.
On average it is but momentary the roll-off could be more or less so the effect is not the same.
Of course it will give some idea of how that will sound.

I know, the highshelf wouldn't introduce artifacts nor come from the same place, it's just to achieve the end result of being "warmer".

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

The roll-off from filterless DACs is not the same as a highshelf.
On average it is but momentary the roll-off could be more or less so the effect is not the same.
Of course it will give some idea of how that will sound.

Same thing with overall distortion.

 

[Bud Spencer]

Warmer R2R arrived today and it sounds amazing.

Don't listen to these old jokers that DAC's don't have sound signature
I'll be gone for good now.

 

[solderdude]

Warmer R2R arrived today and it sounds amazing.

Don't listen to these old jokers that DAC's don't have sound signature
I'll be gone for good now.

It has already been established that this DAC has a different sound signature by design.

What is being said here is that all well designed DACs that measure transparent can not be told apart in a controlled blind test.

This is something entirely different than stating all DACs sound the same. They don't and is easily shown with measurements.

The DAC in question will sound fine to the vast majority of people despite the relatively poor measurements.

 

[foden2025]

Just to clarify the degrees are in °F obviously, I used the Fiio DAC only in NOS no interest in OS mode. I used HQPlayer for digital filters and played with the few I like I don't see importance of filters on this DAC compared to the SMSL. With a SMSL I was able to use filters that tame high frequencies. Apparently no need for me to do this here as it's already rolled off. the sound is more relaxed compared to the SMSL DAC as I compared same tracks I played before I received the DAC.

 

[Sliphorn]

Just to clarify the degrees are in °F obviously, I used the Fiio DAC only in NOS no interest in OS mode. I used HQPlayer for digital filters and played with the few I like I don't see importance of filters on this DAC compared to the SMSL. With a SMSL I was able to use filters that tame high frequencies. Apparently no need for me to do this here as it's already rolled off. the sound is more relaxed compared to the SMSL DAC as I compared same tracks I played before I received the DAC.

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I wouldn’t consider 88-100 degrees farenheit as hot. Warm, yeah.
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