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FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

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Addendum, many new to the forum does not realise that many here have been part of the problem. I also believed in all the nonsense decades ago listening to different cables etc , been there done that etc .

So it’s a bit said that some mouthbreather accuse every one else here to only look at graphs or similar :( ignoring the subjective nonsense can be the result of trying it for decades and then by hard won experience finally realising it’s was all bunk .
 
There are indeed many people hearing perceiving (obvious) differences between DACs, cables and whatnot.

Good for them.... or not, as they will always be looking for the next best thing and spend a lot of money in the search.

We have to believe all of them on their word.
They truly perceive it so aren't lying and thus they are very outspoken and hate what 'ASR' says about it. Especially the reasons for it.

They will never attempt/do a level matched statistically blind test (is very difficult with DACs anyway) so will never understand why 'ASR' is as firm in their 'beliefs' as they are in their 'trusting their ears'.

So be it. It is pointless to debate (from both sides of the argument).

I listen more to music than I look at plots and I have seen a LOT of plots. Listening and looking for optimal sound quality I have done for decades.
It is a silly arguments that 'ASR inhabitants' only look at plots.
A very childish and extremely narrow minded (an hateful) viewpoint to say that's what 'ASR' is.

Now... about the FiiO DAC in question. I like the looks but would like to see the R2R and Valve words on the front to be smaller in size or not even there.
I can see people liking it. It mostly sounds excellent anyway as the 'tube distortion' will be very low in level and one can use OS as well making R2R indistinguishable from DS (compared to filterless).

Yeah, people that like this DAC and even prefer it (looks and/or soundwise) should be proud and happy owners. Regardless if it measures 'well' or doesn't. In the end every home audio device is used to enjoy music with.
 
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I like the looks but would like to see the R2R and Valve words on the front to be smaller in size or not even there.
Funnily enough that is how it appears in some official marketing. Look at how much nicer it is here for example! I think if I had the device I'd try to get rid of the text.

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I dont need a dac i dont care about it being r2r and tubed...
But I ordered one just because of look because of vu meters.
It reminds me so much of old technics that since I saw it I wanted it.
Oh well....
1764875656780.png1764875631556.png
 
There are hundreds of thousands of people, who can clearly hear differences between DACs, myself included. But according to the hivemind here, we are all just imagining stuff. Im using the same set-up, in the same room, sitting in the same position and I hear STARK differences between DACs. Yet the "venerable scientific community" here says, that im just imagining stuff. And that some low budget SMSL DAC sounds the same, as a DAC that costs 20-50 times more. Its actually getting petty and really annoying, when people want to talk about new DACs and there is always a legion of users here who chime in FURIOUSLY and demand to know why such a "useless and expensive" DAC dares to exist. When SMSL delivers the supposedly same performance for a fraction of the cost. How dare they do not conform to our GRAPH!!!
I used believe dacs sound difference.
I invested in an AB kit and volume matched and compared. I only can tell difference with bad dac like on laptop or R2R.

All delta sigma implementation sounded same to me. Although I am not trained like golden ear to listen for difference but I could tell difference between transducers but couldn't between gears like dacs or dedicated dacs which are delta sigma.

I would really recommend to do a AB testing for your self before you give a conclusion. And if you did congratulations you are also on par with those golden ears who can hear differences also in build material like using aluminium, steel or titanium. I couldn't so I cannot trust these golden ear.

I did had R2R like from denafiris(I returned at the time as I mostly as headphones no speaker) and Fiio K11(kept it as it's cheaper and sound preferred with speaker) I don't like them for headphones as they take out details and mess with soundstage in wired way I could tell on high resolving transducers they sounded grainy to me. But on speaker I enjoy them for music as their grany sound is somehow smoothen out on speaker and I understood they are not faithfully reproducing sound stage like delta sigma dacs but what ever they are doing with soundstage is kind of my preference but other than that they sound less detailed on speaker as well.

Talking realistic all these dacs have flat frequency response so they cannot produce any sound colour untill there are distortion(sound signals not matching original signal) and AB tests can help you remove or confirm these biases.

I stopped believing people with golden ear as soon I test the same gears which they shilled in their reviews and found I been scammed. Later I did realised these golden ear are trained for listening thing general users like me cannot hear, so my conclusion is dacs do not have difference in sound if their frequency response is flat and have miniscule distortion, dacs which wierd distortion can make it sound different not necessarily better as they upto the user who listen to them to determine what they like.

So I would rather hear a faithful reproduce music rather than a colored one. If I want to color it I don't need to invest again in a seperate gear rather use EQ or some tool to add likeable harmonic distortion which are cheaper than a new dac.
And never trust a review who are sponsored and claim they have golden ear they are just modern day sales person for these companies.
 
Funnily enough that is how it appears in some official marketing. Look at how much nicer it is here for example! I think if I had the device I'd try to get rid of the text.

View attachment 495494
Doesn't that look awesome? Really pleasant. I can see the warm sound!

Life could be so simple, too and especially for subjectivists. Buy gear, looks nice, feels nice, sounds nice, and done. Good hifi, not even overly expensive.

But no, that's not enough. They seem to feel a need to make up elaborate stories why it's somehow superior to other stuff. Really going great lengths to come up why, with pseudoscience, to convince whom? Mainly themselves? Eh.
 
As many of you suspect, what is usually happening during sighted evaluations of equipment (e.g. comparing DAC’s, cables, amplifiers, the the phenomenon of “burn in” and “break in” etc etc) is related to changes occurring in the brain (neural connections and neurochemistry), rather than within and in between equipment. I use the word “usually” carefully because occasionally some examples of equipment being evaluated have defects that are acute enough to gain audibility. In other words there are rare exceptions (eg a particularly poorly implemented Triode tube amp).

Of course, biases and changes in neural pathways and chemistry have been tested in pier reviewed publications.

Here is just one example (there are many!):
(All credit goes to the authors listed in the publication)


A copy of the abstract from the above referenced paper:

“Audio burn-in, often referred to as the process by which audio equipment undergoes a series of played
sounds to achieve optimal performance, remains a topic of significant debate within both audiophile
communities and relevant scientific fields. While some attribute perceived changes in sound quality to
actual physical changes in the equipment, an emerging perspective points to the interplay of physiological,
psychological, and social factors that might influence these perceptions. This narrative review delves into
the intricate layers of auditory physiology, cognitive sound interpretation, and the wider societal beliefs
around burn-in. We underscore the importance of discerning between actual physical changes in audio gear
and the multifaceted human factors that potentially modulate our perception of sound. Through a
comprehensive exploration, this article illuminates the complexities of this phenomenon, offering insights
for both medical professionals and passionate audio enthusiasts and proposing directions for future
research.”

-Lumi
 
As many of you suspect, what is usually happening during sighted evaluations of equipment (e.g. comparing DAC’s, cables, amplifiers, the the phenomenon of “burn in” and “break in” etc etc) is related to changes occurring in the brain (neural connections and neurochemistry), rather than within and in between equipment. I use the word “usually” carefully because occasionally some examples of equipment being evaluated have defects that are acute enough to gain audibility. In other words there are rare exceptions (eg a particularly poorly implemented Triode tube amp).

Of course, biases and changes in neural pathways and chemistry have been tested in pier reviewed publications.

Here is just one example (there are many!):
(All credit goes to the authors listed in the publication)


A copy of the abstract from the above referenced paper:

“Audio burn-in, often referred to as the process by which audio equipment undergoes a series of played
sounds to achieve optimal performance, remains a topic of significant debate within both audiophile
communities and relevant scientific fields. While some attribute perceived changes in sound quality to
actual physical changes in the equipment, an emerging perspective points to the interplay of physiological,
psychological, and social factors that might influence these perceptions. This narrative review delves into
the intricate layers of auditory physiology, cognitive sound interpretation, and the wider societal beliefs
around burn-in. We underscore the importance of discerning between actual physical changes in audio gear
and the multifaceted human factors that potentially modulate our perception of sound. Through a
comprehensive exploration, this article illuminates the complexities of this phenomenon, offering insights
for both medical professionals and passionate audio enthusiasts and proposing directions for future
research.”

-Lumi
A nice summary addressing several psychoacoustic phenomena in one article:

https://www.****************/2025/12/study-reveals-why-audiophiles-fall-snake-oil/
 
I don't think that "we" actually have anything but speculation as to what -- if anything! -- the vacuum tubes (valves) are doing in this device. :)
I took a bit of a look and it seems the valves are indeed providing the output and so certainly the output impedance will be higher - I certainly think I'd
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I have both a Geshelli J2 AK4493 with stock opamps and a J2S with AK4499 and Sparkos 3602 in all three positions. The J2S was purchased to replace the J2 in my main system thinking it would be a sound upgrade. They both sound great and I soon realized there was no reason to purchase the J2S/4499/Sparkos. If there is a sound difference it is extremely subtle. I keep the J2S in my main system and the J2 in a secondary system. So……I don’t think there’ll be any DAC killing going on.

I also use a Schiit Modi + and a Fosi ZD3 in two other systems and guess what? They sound great too. No surprise. Oh yeah, I also have a JDS Labs Atom Dac that is in my rotation just for giggles. It too sounds great.

However, I sprung for the FiiO Warmer and it should arrive by end of year. Why? Why not? I’m retired and have the loot and I like messing around with my four household systems. Yeah, I’m a bit of a gear nut. Such is life.
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Yes ... but the argument here seems to be that they all sound the same ... (I think)
 
Thank you guys for the very thoughtful comments (they've given me a lot to think about). Of course, I should have known that the answer is complex and nuanced (much like most everything IRL).

BTW, most (but not all) of my audio gear is ASR approved (measures superbly), but I thought it would be interesting tolisten to something outside of my comfort zone and see what all the fuss is with harmonic distortion.

I did buy a Schiit Lyr+ preamp/headphone amp but I can't really tell the difference between the tube and SS modes in a sighted comparison.

-Lumi
That is a nuance: "in a sighted comparison" ... just thought I'd point that out. :) Nice one.
 
There are hundreds of thousands of people, who can clearly hear differences between DACs, myself included. But according to the hivemind here, we are all just imagining stuff. Im using the same set-up, in the same room, sitting in the same position and I hear STARK differences between DACs. Yet the "venerable scientific community" here says, that im just imagining stuff. And that some low budget SMSL DAC sounds the same, as a DAC that costs 20-50 times more. Its actually getting petty and really annoying, when people want to talk about new DACs and there is always a legion of users here who chime in FURIOUSLY and demand to know why such a "useless and expensive" DAC dares to exist. When SMSL delivers the supposedly same performance for a fraction of the cost. How dare they do not conform to our GRAPH!!!
The problem is with language (partly). So for example "STARK" suggests large differences and this is just going to invite quizzical responses ... justifiably 'quizzical' ...
 
I took a bit of a look and it seems the valves are indeed providing the output and so certainly the output impedance will be higher - I certainly think I'd

Yes ... but the argument here seems to be that they all sound the same ... (I think)
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Pretty much. Though I did find the ZD3 initially a bit harsh sounding in my main system but a great match in a smaller system using a 3e A5 class d amp. After a period of time I tried it again in my main system and it was fine. And I suspect the FiiO Warmer will sound pretty okay too.
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I took a bit of a look and it seems the valves are indeed providing the output and so certainly the output impedance will be higher - I certainly think I'd

Yes ... but the argument here seems to be that they all sound the same ... (I think)
My understanding is that, in this specific case (FIIO Warmer), that the harmonic 2nd order distortion is high enough that it's at least with in the realm of the possibility of being audible (e.g. identifiable with statistical significance compared to a well implemented neutral DAC (e.g.one of Topping's or SMSL's better delta sigma DAC's). Although, as someone kindly pointed out (Ropeburn I think), the harmonic distortion is still 60 db down from the fundamental.

Speaking just for myself, I believe the FIIO warmer DAC would make a for great candidate for a scientifically rigorous double blind test against a well implemented ES Sabre or AKM DAC.

-Lumi
 
There is so much variation between master recordings that we need devices to counteract. There used to be an engineering based "buffer", and that was predominantly in the lap of the engineering required for putting the masters onto vinyl ... so there was an intermediary so to speak (and often times a subjective one).

So all the arguments here are pretty superfluous not taking this into account. It's not just about rooms, and measurements ... we need easy dials for different music masters.

Bring back the concept of a pre-amp I say ... and eq does not cut it ... (because the masters vary so much) ... a dac with switchable R2R vs Delta Sigma, and valves vs op amps would be fun. Post edit: at this price you could get two units and for the price of a more, but not particularly expensive one, and have more fun.
 
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My understanding is that, in this specific case (FIIO Warmer), that the harmonic 2nd order distortion is high enough that it's at least with in the realm of the possibility of being audible (e.g. identifiable with statistical significance compared to a well implemented neutral DAC (e.g.one of Topping's or SMSL's better delta sigma DAC's). Although, as someone kindly pointed out (Ropeburn I think), the harmonic distortion is still 60 db down from the fundamental.

Speaking just for myself, I believe the FIIO warmer DAC would make a for great candidate for a scientifically rigorous double blind test against a well implemented ES Sabre or AKM DAC.

-Lumi
Yes ... but I'd be astonished if you need it in this case if the goal was simply to detect differences (though personally I get stressed out with tests and I am sure it (the stress) nterferes with my perception).
 
I will say a controversial take on this DAC - it is actually my favourite DAC - but not for how it sounds but for how it looks and fits into a nice looking audio stack.

I have been listening to it for a few days now, doing a sort of A/B test, as I have set it up so I can route the same audio around it into my KEF Speakers or my Headphone Amp and then quick switch via Roon to route the audio though the Warmer DAC. With OS Mode, I really can't hear a difference ( with the LS50 Meta Speakers - I haven't compared too much with headphones yet ) with NOS mode, I feel it is 'different enough' ( subjectively not necessarily 'bad' but different so lots of YouTubers will no doubt talk about NOS mode being magical :facepalm: )

I have a bunch of pure DACs from SMSL, Topping (and even Fosi Audio) which are no doubt technically are cleaner ( more transparent ) but with OS mode I think the Warmer is transparent enough and while all those other similar priced DAC (i.e. $200-$300) are best 'hidden' away in an audio stack, this looks so nice it can be visually pushed forward and I like the simplicity of the buttons and the branding on the silver unit is not as obvious:
fiio-warmer.jpg


But FiiO probably missed one trick with this - you can't really see the Tubes, they do glow slightly in the dark but while they probably wouldn't have called it a 'Warmer' without them, they really didn't need to have tubes ( other than for the marketing purposes). Ideally they would have had both the R2R DAC and a DS DAC internally any have some switch on the back (as that is where the OS/NOS switch is).
 
I will say a controversial take on this DAC - it is actually my favourite DAC - but not for how it sounds but for how it looks and fits into a nice looking audio stack.
@Jeromeof I'm thinking about grabbing one of these for the aesthetics with the vu meters. I notice the vu meters have no adjustments because Fiio state they are "true mechanical" (not the clearest description), so how do you find them? e.g. are they jittery or smooth / are the needles moving at medium volumes, or only when blasting at full etc?
 
@Jeromeof I'm thinking about grabbing one of these for the aesthetics with the vu meters. I notice the vu meters have no adjustments because Fiio state they are "true mechanical" (not the clearest description), so how do you find them? e.g. are they jittery or smooth / are the needles moving at medium volumes, or only when blasting at full etc?
They are very smooth ( much better than the LCD based "fake" VU Meters on the FiiO K17 - which are jittery). The needles do move at medium volumes (there is no control of the sensitivity). But, I will see can I capture a video later.
 
I can't upload videos here but here is an animated Gif:

fiio-warmer-r2r-vu-meter.gif


But this link should be the short video with better quality and music (with a bit of Miles Davis) to give you a better idea:


While I do love how it looks (for the price), I would also not have it as my only DAC, listening with some headphones earlier it definitely isn't as 'analytical' sounding as say the Topping DX5 II I have next to it (or the FiiO K17), both of which have LCD 'screens' with VU Meter displays.
 
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