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Fiio K13 R2R - Owners Thread
- Thread starter Guddu
- Start date
Yes I did install the Fiio USB Audio Driver for Windows 11. Reinstalled it twice and the problem still presist. The sound was also gone when I use the PEQ while using Foobar2000 ASIO straight to the K13 R2R.
I did reset it as well, didn't help. Looks like something from the PC side that's causing the problem.
Fiio email support suggested using sampling rate bellow 192k, which what I initially did.
Just bought a third party USB-C to USB-A that's longer than the included one and it fixed the problem for me. Now it works while using the PEQ on the K13. Looks like USB-C to USB-C cable is a no go for my PC. Maybe some program is interfering with the USB connection idk. But it's just weird that it only occurs when using the PEQ.
Ah that's probably it. Some cables are honestly hit or miss.
Ufasas
Active Member
solderdude
Grand Contributor
The FiiO PL80 power supply does no less than 6 things:
- It lowers the amount of money on your account.
- It increases the amount of money on FiiO (dealer's) account.
- It increases the amount of boxes in your setup.
- It takes up a bit more space.
- It increases power consumption lightly.
- it might set your brain in a different mood accounting for any perceived differences.
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I really don't understand the power cable /power "upgrade" thing people are going for. Either it has the power it needs or it won't. It's not like it was designed to accept a bunch more power from some mysterious other source.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
The idea behind the separate power supply is founded on some truths and a bunch of myths (misunderstanding, lack of knowledge, incorrect information).
Both of them (facts and myths) are important aspects in the whole audio business.
Now... a long explanation below for those who want some more info... for those that want the short answer: scroll all the way to the bottom and read the last 2 (bolded) sentences.
- A power supply is connected to and draws power from mains.
Mains power is anything but a nice sine-wave. It is 'flat-topped' for a few reasons and contains lots of higher frequency dips and peaks as well as 'signals' caused by connected equipment.
Also the mains voltage is not constant in voltage level and can have 'brown-outs' (very short drops in voltage) for several reasons.This potentially could also result in a varying lowered and rectified. Mains is AC but nearly all equipment except for some heaters and lamps runs on DC internally.
Amplitude variations (short and long term) can cause a varying DC voltage at the output of the rectifier.
That DC voltage thus can have low frequency (not high frequency such as noise and audible range frequencies) variations and as a rectifier only 'creates' DC voltage near its peaks also can contain 'hum' (50/60 or 100/120 depending on the rectifier) and harmonics.
The most common solution for countering these always present 'variations' in rectified DC voltage is to use a regulator. This is a circuit that literally regulates its output voltage and (tries to) maintain a constant (not varying) output voltage regardless of its load (power draw) AND regardless of its input voltage (the rectified DC).
As good as all audio-equipment has 1 or more regulators inside.
Now... these circuits are not perfect... they still pass a (very) small percentage of input voltage variations, they still vary the output voltage when varying currents are drawn (think speaker amps) and also can add a (very, very) small amount of noise on that regulated DC voltage that feeds the circuitry.
Now why and when does this matter... it matters when electronics designs have a poor so-called PSRR or PSRR. This number describes how much (percentage but given in dB) of power supply noises actually enters the signal path.
There are circuits that have a low PSRR and devices that have a very high PSRR.
IF the circuit has a low PSRR then the power supply need to be low noise, have low 'ripple' (variations caused by the rectifier) and must not vary the power supply voltage rail(s) caused by sudden current draws. These circuits require a power supply with a good regulator and have enough 'headroom' in the regulator to handle mains voltage variations.
Any half-decent designed circuit/device has this (a good regulator).
This is INSIDE the device and cannot be changed.
Now, these days a lot of audio equipment has external (switching) DC power supplies. Usually 5V, 12V or basically any other voltage between 15V and 48V (sometimes even close to 60V).
WHEN an audio device that uses an external DC power source has poor PSRR the 'variations' (hum, noise, switching frequencies, load variation caused voltage drops) that may become audible.
Here is the thing though... manufacturers actually know this happens and test their gear with the supplied power supply. IF problems arise the designer uses internal regulators or uses other methods to prevent this and increases the PSRR of the device itself.
WHEN an audio device is well designed it already has a high PSRR and thus none of the 'unwanted DC variations' enter the audio path no extra measures are needed.
Here is where the audio myths are born. Some designs do have poor PSRR and they actually increase measured (and sometimes even audible) improvements when a poor (usually unregulated) power supply is replaced by a regulated one.
This does not mean that devices with a high PSRR will also improve their performance with a 'cleaner' power supply.
BUT ... there comes the 'discerning' audiophile with the 'blacker blacks' and supreme fear of 'noise' and they have heard that a 'better power supply' helps. In some rare cases it does and rare cases are usually 'audiophile gems' that are usually NOT well designed for many reasons.
Sooooo a 'better' and 'lower noise' power supply will not 'harm' anything and as for audiophiles 'EVERYTHING matters' any 'better' power supply thus always improves things.
These people NEED a better (thus heavier and more expensive) power supply that is good/impressive looking and can supply waaaayyy more current than they actually use.
There come the manufacturers smelling money... and believe it or not every manufacturer NEEDS to sell their wares to survive and growth in profit is needed !
So ... they jump on the bandwagon and supply what 'scared' and/or 'highly discriminating' (wannabee) audiophiles desire and would otherwise buy from other sellers.
It's a business praying on uncertainties and myths that, in some rare cases, have some truth behind it.
Another thing that exists but is NEVER specified (well some really professional and real high-end manufacturers DO test for EMC (Electro Magnetic Compatibility) and actually can supply test results. This is related to FCC rules etc. Norms and regulations appliances for certain usage HAS to conform to.
It really matters and in 99% of the cases is NOT mentioned in the spec sheets of audio equipment.
This is where things get complicated and can even be hard to understand by engineers and people with some electronics background.
Anyway it is the other main reason.
- Not only there are issues with the voltage itself (both mains and rectified/regulated DC) but there is a second, pretty common and more unpredictable issue with power supplies. The issues with the power supply voltages are called differential (so between the power supply rails) but there is also a common mode 'disturbance'.
This means that there is an 'unwanted signal/voltage' between the power supply rails and the actual (physical) ground as well as the safety ground.
These grounds are NOT the same ground but are related as safety ground SHOULD be connected to physical ground.
This also is NOT the same ground as 'audio ground' (usually the shield of RCA/XLR/Jack connections). Well also not entirely because in many cases that same 'audio ground' is connected directly to safety ground.
In double isolated equipment that 'audio-ground' is 'floating' (not connected) and can still cause issues when you touch that audio-ground as an unwanted 'current' passes through your body (usually too low to notice but can be a bit higher and cause a 'tingling' feeling) to physical ground.
So, there are quite a few 'paths' these not wanted/desirable currents can take. These can become audible.
Especially when multiple power supplies are connected both on mains and on different devices which are by themselves also connected via audio interlinks.
Add to that possible 'paths' such as leakage through the body and/or conducting surfaces which can complicate things.
These are called 'ground loops' and is basically an unwanted LEAKAGE current which finds its way into the audio path.
There are generally 2 ways how these unwanted currents may become audible.
The usual sources are PC power supplies and laptop power supplies because they have to comply to certain rules/regulations... not important now ... the why...
One way these currents become audible is the shield of interlinks. The audio ground that is... This wire/shield has a resistance and any current other than the audio current that flows through that wire/shield will generate a (very small) voltage which is ADDED to the audio signal.
This can reach audible levels, noise, noises, hum, weird 'computer related' sounds etc.
The other way is through design errors. Yes, even electronics designers make stupid mistakes that did not reveal itself during development or testing simply because they did not test for this or that the unfortunate combination of situtations did not occur.
The common errors are incorrect grounding paths, incorrect PCB layout (the circuitboard traces/ground planes) or incorrect joining of digital and analog sections (DAC/ADC).
Due to these design errors some combinations of connected gear can cause unwanted currents (from different power supplies or signal paths) to create small voltages to enter the signa path.
In both cases this leads to the 'hard to determine why' weird and audible sounds'. Those should be solvable but each situation differs and thus the solution is different as well. This is why some people that are plagued with 'audible gremlins' have a hard time getting rid of them as they use solutions offered by folks that had 'similar' gremlins and found a solution that worked for them but they had a different cause.
Anyway ... this too is power supply related but may or may not be solved by replacing a power supply. The reason for this is that the actual issue may or may not be the power supply (actually the unavoidable leakage current it has) but most likely is caused by the design of the (interlink) cable(s) or, more likely, a design error in one or more of the connected devices.
The first thing audiophiles will blame is the power supply (for all above mentioned reasons). Even the many 'psychoacoustic illusions' (things people 'hear' that may not be caused by actual issues) are often blamed on the power supplies.... Everything matters theorists.
In any case.... In some rare cases a different power supply could help with some issues but in 99% of all cases the (external or internal) power supply is NOT the root cause.
Still ... it keeps nagging with 'audiophiles' and they read about linear and switching, ground loops, ripple, noise and whatnot and assume it applies to all audio equipment.
Especially theirs as they are 'listeners' and hear all kinds of things.
These folks will be buying the 'expensive' ones, or the 'medical' or 'for audio' power supplies.
Not because they FACTUALLY need them but because they THINK they need them, THINK it might improve sound, READ that power supplies matter, MAUFACTURERS sell them with loads of (often non-appliacable) 'explanations' and 'promisses of audible improvements'. These are the usual ones, blacker blacks, lower noise, smoother treble, tighter bass, more 'analog' sound, clearner sound, more natural sound and throw terms and numbers around (+ testimonials/links to favorable reviews/tests) and there you have your very lucrative market.
That's why people buy external power supplies... not because they actually need them (in rare cases they actually might) but are convinced they need them and they will bring audible improvements.
Manufacturers offer them because they can make a profit (selling more boxes).
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OP
Guddu
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Are Fiio claiming anywhere that their DAC will have better performance with external power supplies or just YT experts who hear wider or deeper soundstage with a device with higher price sticker….. every time?
I fear their soundstage might get to their neighbors soon if they keep on getting more and higher priced devices like this
I fear their soundstage might get to their neighbors soon if they keep on getting more and higher priced devices like this
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There are people reporting on the internet whose soundstage has been widening on roughly a monthly basis for decades.
Either it was very, very narrow to start with, or it's now so wide that people in the next county over are also benefitting.
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(FWIW)
As soon as I hear soundstage being touted, my ears switch off in self defense.
As soon as I hear soundstage being touted, my ears switch off in self defense.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
From the FiiO website: https://fiio.eu/product/fiio-darksi...5w-toroidal-transformer-12v15v-dual-output-3a
But then go to the product features: (not in text so not possible to search but in pictures).
There it is 'the pitch-black background' and 'letting the true essence of the music shine through'.
Does this not happen with the stock PS ?
And there is more audiophile talk including 'vivid clear soundstage' and 'solid bass extension', 'effortless transient dynamics' and 'cleaner audio signal' and 'enhances audio details'
Don't get me wrong I have quite a few FiiO devices and love them so it's not about FiiO specifically but rather that they put it on the market to sell extra boxes.
Nothing wrong with that .... all manufacturers do that.
In the end ... you buy a box on the assumption they kind of bodged the stock power supply of their own devices and you can 'upgrade' the 12VDC with that particular device by paying extra.
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
But .... the FiiO one also can be set to 15V where the battery only does 14.4V-14.8V in good condition while on a charger. 
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Ahh.But .... the FiiO one also can be set to 15V where the battery only does 14.4V-14.8V in good condition while on a charger.
The 21st Century version of...
It probably betrays too much of my tortured mental state
to note that I find the multiple potential meanings of the word pitch (as a noun*) in this comment amusing. 
______________
* Not to mention the extra-added bonus resonance when we consider pitch also as a verb.
OP
Guddu
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I am totally with you.
I am not going to be advocating for Fiio, but they have at least mentioned what could possibly be true in a few cases if not all.
A small possibility is all it takes to inspire many to buy something that they might or might not need.
If internal PSU in such device is causing background noise then such external PSU could very well resolve it.... possibly providing their advertised "pitch-black background".
OTOH, one could very well use these statements in their favor to try and return such product if it doesn't meet the requirements or help in improving something. Platforms like Amazon are good enough to take such descriptions as reasonable reason to return a product.
Where - I didn't spot anything.
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