Fiio K13 R2R - Owners Thread

[Nabooh]

Given that choice - me too.

The choice is not that stark though. There are other brands than Fiio and Topping. Though I am unsure how many offer the features of the K13 at the price.

I spent quite a bit of time looking into other options for a DAC/Amp with built-in PEQ. Honestly, aside from a few small dongles or other devices from Topping and FiiO—and if we rule out the JDS Element 4, which is expensive and hard to find in Europe—the choices out there are actually pretty slim.

The only real complaint I have about the FiiO compared to the Topping is the PEQ management. It's a bit of a pain and not very intuitive. But for me, it's strictly "set and forget", so once the PEQ is saved, I never have to touch it again!

 

[IsaacOscar]

I spent quite a bit of time looking into other options for a DAC/Amp with built-in PEQ. Honestly, aside from a few small dongles

Fiio makes many of these for good prices. Is there a reason you don't like dongles? The bigger devices seem to be more expensive, so I don't see the point (although they do tend to provide more power than dongles; which is probably useful for speakers, my headphones on the other hand will deafen me at full volume on my tiny little Fiio Melody)

The only real complaint I have about the FiiO compared to the Topping is the PEQ management. It's a bit of a pain and not very intuitive. But for me, it's strictly "set and forget", so once the PEQ is saved, I never have to touch it again!

You haven't spent hours fideling with it trying to find the perfect profile and to try and understand what effect different settings have? So the Fiio PEQ software has definitely annoyed me, but it does get the job done eventually.

 

[Nabooh]

Fiio makes many of these for good prices. Is there a reason you don't like dongles? The bigger devices seem to be more expensive, so I don't see the point (although they do tend to provide more power than dongles; which is probably useful for speakers, my headphones on the other hand will deafen me at full volume on my tiny little Fiio Melody)

You haven't spent hours fideling with it trying to find the perfect profile and to try and understand what effect different settings have? So the Fiio PEQ software has definitely annoyed me, but it does get the job done eventually.

For my desk, I want a nice DAC/AMP that stays put. I know it might sound silly, but I prefer a small dongle for portable use or for a DAP, but on my desk, I want a DAC with a physical volume knob on the front.

Regarding FiiO's PEQ, I know exactly how it works; I heavily use Oratory1990's EQs, or sometimes those from the AutoEQ database. On Topping devices, it was very intuitive and relatively simple to apply. On the FiiO, I find it pretty annoying: every time I access the web interface, I have to reconnect to the FiiO, and to get my saved EQs, I ALSO have to log into my FiiO account every single time. Moreover, it's impossible to rename custom PEQ presets (USER1, USER2, USER3...). There are some good ideas, like a custom EQ database shared by other FiiO device owners, as well as an AutoEQ section... but honestly, being able to rename custom EQs is literally the bare minimum. I hope they allow it in the future.

 

[IsaacOscar]

For my desk, I want a nice DAC/AMP that stays put. I know it might sound silly, but I prefer a small dongle for portable use or for a DAP, but on my desk, I want a DAC with a physical volume knob on the front.

Fair enough, I just use the gesture button on my mouse, or the buttons on my headphone cable.
(I know you can buy separate volume knobs, this could be cheaper and give you extra buttons)

On the FiiO, I find it pretty annoying: every time I access the web interface, I have to reconnect to the FiiO, and to get my saved EQs, I ALSO have to log into my FiiO account every single time.

Yup! The android app stays logged in thankfully.

Moreover, it's impossible to rename custom PEQ presets (USER1, USER2, USER3...). There are some good ideas, like a custom EQ database shared by other FiiO device owners, as well as an AutoEQ section... but honestly, being able to rename custom EQs is literally the bare minimum. I hope they allow it in the future.

On my FiiO devices (the Melody and Tiny) you can rename them. Unfortunately it's limited to 8 characters. (one's you've saved to your account and not your device, can have much longer names).

Also, there's a horribly annoying bug where whenever you apply one of your account EQ's to the device, it automatically renames a device EQ to the saved ones name (first 8 characters in uppercase), bug it frequently renames the WRONG eq (I.e. not the one you've just modified).

 

[IsaacOscar]

Here's the filters, unfortunately I do not have time to measure anything. I read some reports from other users which states that clipping and artifacts can occur with EQ if the master gain is not matched (in negative) of the highest filter gain. I tried to lower the master gain on the generated EQs and the clipping was gone.

Coincidently, I just discovered a related bug in my script, I was rounding the preamp to the nearest integer, but I should have been taking the floor (i.e. rounding down, which is what an older version of the script did). However, this doesn't affect the filters you gave me (as rounding and flooring produce the same result).

As such, I was unable to reproduce any issue using my FiiO Melody (looped back into itself, sample rate 44.1kHz)

As you can see, no clipping, and identical to Equalizer APO.

So my guess is you have the same problem as my Tiny A has: the master gain is capped at a value less than the maximum (i.e. +12dB).
So I can update my script to fix this automatically, if you could please find the minimum value for the master gain that produces output at the same volume as the EQ disabled. For most devices this is +12dB, but for my Tiny it is +5dB.
(Just reset the EQ to get a flat EQ, and then adjust the slider, switching the EQ on and off until your ears can't tell the difference)

To be sure they are at the same volume, you can measure the result with REW, or just any sound recording program really.

If you do find that +12dB is the value that gives the same volume as the EQ off, then I have no idea what the issue is unless you do take the time to measure the frequency response like I did above.

 

[emulle]

View attachment 515839

As you can see, no clipping, and identical to Equalizer APO.

I did some measurements comparing the EQs;

1. Straight from Equalizer APO with EQ Off on device.
2. A direct copy of the settings from APO into Fiio Control.
3. The generated EQ files from your script (gain adjusted to match APO config).

As you can see the low shelf Fiio/APO EQ match. Whereas the script EQ with the adjusted Q-values is the outlier.

There's a bit of a discrepancy when comparing the unheardlab Fiio/APO EQ, not sure what that means but I did not find it noticeable.
As stated in previous post I cannot hear a difference between Fiio and APO EQ.

So, it seems the PEQ bug from other Fiio devices are not there in the K13.

 

[IsaacOscar]

I did some measurements comparing the EQs;

Thanks so much for spending the time on this!

View attachment 516183

As you can see the low shelf Fiio/APO EQ match. Whereas the script EQ with the adjusted Q-values is the outlier.

There's a bit of a discrepancy when comparing the unheardlab Fiio/APO EQ, not sure what that means but I did not find it noticeable.
As stated in previous post I cannot hear a difference between Fiio and APO EQ.

So, it seems the PEQ bug from other Fiio devices are not there in the K13.

I've updated my script to not do a √2 multiplication if the device is the K13.

In the above graphs, what did you have set for the master gain/global gain (the leftmost slider in the Fiio control app & website)? And did you shift the graphs vertically at all to line them up in the above picture?

 

[emulle]

Thanks so much for spending the time on this!

I've updated my script to not do a √2 multiplication if the device is the K13.

In the above graphs, what did you have set for the master gain/global gain (the leftmost slider in the Fiio control app & website)? And did you shift the graphs vertically at all to line them up in the above picture?

No worries, I was interested in seeing if I could freely use the built in EQ either way.

-4dB for unheardlab and -6.7dB for low shelf. I did not change anything in the program, just ran the measurements. I did however need to change from EXCL output to normal when using APO.

 

[IsaacOscar]

No worries, I was interested in seeing if I could freely use the built in EQ either way.

-4dB for unheardlab and -6.7dB for low shelf. I did not change anything in the program, just ran the measurements. I did however need to change from EXCL output to normal when using APO.

Hmm very strange. The maximum value of the master/global gain slider is +12dB right?
If so, can you do a flat EQ measurement to compare +12dB to no EQ? (I'm curious if it does actually make things 12dB louder)

 

[emulle]

Hmm very strange. The maximum value of the master/global gain slider is +12dB right?
If so, can you do a flat EQ measurement to compare +12dB to no EQ? (I'm curious if it does actually make things 12dB louder)

I'll see if I can get time later today, but let me assure you that without lowering the gain on the generated scripts there are a lot of clipping.

 

[IsaacOscar]

I'll see if I can get time later today, but let me assure you that without lowering the gain on the generated scripts there are a lot of clipping.

If you turn the volume down the clipping should disappear (so when measuring it, set the level of the test signal to a low enough DBFS such that it doesn't complain about clipping / product a really noisy/distorted result). Of course when comparing different master/global gain settings, it's important that each measurement is done at the same volume/level.

 

[bugis]

My FiiO K13 arrived today. I tried to update the firmware through FiiO Control on PC, but it gives an “unsupported device” error. I couldn’t even find the Windows 11 driver.


Where can I check whether the USB, DAC, and Bluetooth firmware versions are up to date?


Also, when I switch to UAC 1, the audio becomes faster it plays at about 1.5x speed. Why does this happen?

 

[IsaacOscar]

My FiiO K13 arrived today. I tried to update the firmware through FiiO Control on PC, but it gives an “unsupported device” error.

It gives that error for devices they've never released a firmware update for. (But it probably also gives that method for devices that require updating via some other method?)

I couldn’t even find the Windows 11 driver.

Try this? https://forum.fiio.com/note/showNoteContent.do?id=202105191527366657910&tid=17

Where can I check whether the USB, DAC, and Bluetooth firmware versions are up to date?

I don't think they've released any updates for it, as it's not listed on https://forum.fiio.com/firmwareDown.do

Also, when I switch to UAC 1, the audio becomes faster it plays at about 1.5x speed. Why does this happen?

Very strange, this doesn't happen with my FiiO tiny. Do you need to use UAC 1 for some reason (I believe some game consoles like the Switch require it)?

 

[bugis]

Try this? https://forum.fiio.com/note/showNoteContent.do?id=202105191527366657910&tid=17


I don't think they've released any updates for it, as it's not listed on https://forum.fiio.com/firmwareDown.do


Very strange, this doesn't happen with my FiiO tiny. Do you need to use UAC 1 for some reason (I believe some game consoles like the Switch require it)?

Thanks for the reply.

I installed the DAC driver for Windows 11 from the link. I selected update through the DAC, and it has been stuck on “waiting” for a while.


As far as I understand, UAC1 is meant for older systems, and if there is a clock rate mismatch, the audio can play faster. UAC2 seems to be intended for modern systems, so I probably don’t have any reason to use UAC1.

 

[IsaacOscar]

I selected update through the DAC, and it has been stuck on “waiting” for a while.

Where did you find this "update" button?
(I know you can also try and update through the FiiO Control Android App, and FiiO does provide a Windows program to do it, but that requires you have a firmware file already)

 

[bugis]

Where did you find this "update" button?
(I know you can also try and update through the FiiO Control App, and FiiO does provide a Windows program to do it, but that requires you have a firmware file already)

I used the left knob on the K13 to navigate the menu. There were options like Update, BT FW, and DAC FW. I selected Update, but it still hasn’t started the update yet.

 

[IsaacOscar]

I used the left knob on the K13 to navigate the menu. There were options like Update, BT FW, and DAC FW. I selected Update, but it still hasn’t started the update yet.

Oh cool, that's convenient (if it actually works anyway).

I still think they haven't released an update:

K13 R2R firmware download link: Not available currently.

Source: https://www.fiio.com/newsinfo/1087837.html

The above also says:

microcontroller and XMOS require upgrades via a computer

The manual also says:

When upgrading the Microcontroller Unit (MCU) firmware, please use the side USB port

So I think you need to have the firmware update on your computer (or flash drive?) or something for that "update" menu to do anything.


Just wait until FiiO releases an update. They usually announce them on this page:

FiiO News

Get up-to-date info about FiiO.FiiO--Born for Music

www.fiio.com

(They haven't mentioned the K13 since announcing its release on page 2 on the desktop version).

 

[bugis]

Oh cool, that's convenient (if it actually works anyway).

I still think they haven't released an update:

Source: https://www.fiio.com/newsinfo/1087837.html

The above also says:


The manual also says:

So I think you need to have the firmware update on your computer (or flash drive?) or something for that "update" menu to do anything.


Just wait until FiiO releases an update. They usually announce them on this page:

FiiO News

Get up-to-date info about FiiO.FiiO--Born for Music

www.fiio.com

(They haven't mentioned the K13 since announcing its release on page 2 on the desktop version).

whats your fw and bt version ?

mine is

fw v52
bt v33

 

[IsaacOscar]

whats your fw and bt version ?

Sorry, I should've mentioned that I don't actually have the K13 (I have the Melody and Tiny A), but other people on this thread do.

 

[Raider]

Do not buy this POS! has shut-off function whenever your music is too loud happens at about 0.8W per channel no where near 2.4W