Fiio K13 R2R - Owners Thread

[MAB]

Wow, where did they say that? (Couldn't they just say that gold looks nicer?)

It's way funner and more profitable to sell gear based on BS, especially when the BS has been laid down over ages of misinformation by the industry.

Maybe if you swallow a copper cable, the sound of you chocking might sound "warm and mellow"...

Nice wordplay, but the sad reality is the audio industry has fed the consumers a complete diet of BS about materials and alleged effects on the sound. So people do have these ideas, and are willing to pay big bucks. Even the low-cost manufacturers need to waste time and cost on things that have nothing to do with audio, like the alleged sonic signature of R2R.

 

[xlinknz]

Industry bullshit, claims and propaganda is not unique to Fiio it is endemic to the industry from budget companies to so called 'high end'

Back on topic I got my K13 due to price, features and looks not because it it was R2R, marketing or the usual plethora of 'good' reviews

I think its excellent value for money (subjective statement of course!)

 

[bugis]

Hi,

I rarely listen to music or watch movies, I mostly play competitive FPS games and sometimes Battlefield-style shooters. I am looking for a DAC/amp to use with the ROG x HIFIMAN Kithara. I want something that preserves as much detail as possible, offers good instrument separation, wide soundstage, and accurate distance and positional imaging in short, something strong in terms of overall sound quality.

I have looked at the FiiO K13 R2R, FiiO K7, and Topping DX5 II models. However, I decided to avoid Topping not because of the price, but because of concerns about potential device failure or possible damage to the headphones. Rather than financial reasons, I simply don’t want to deal with unnecessary stress.

Based on my preferences, what would you recommend?

 

[antcollinet]

I want something that preserves as much detail as possible, offers good instrument separation, wide soundstage, and accurate distance and positional imaging in short, something strong in terms of overall sound quality.

Welcome to ASR.

Thing is, all halfway decent DACs meet your need from an audio quality point of view. Certainly everything in the green and blue section of the chart is audibly perfect in real world listeneing (noise and distortion below the level human hearing can detect)

Just to clarify though - Dacs have nothing to do with instrument separation, soundstage, accurate distance and positional imaging etc.

Those things come from what is in the recording, and then how your speakers and the speaker's interaction with the room delivers that to you.

Audio electronics don't influence that at all unless they are faulty.


So choose anything in the green/blue sections, based on your other needs : Features, price, perception of build quality, after sales support etc etc.

And stop worrying about sound quality from DACs



EDIT - but then I notice you've already been told that by @staticV3 less than a week ago. You're not going to get different answers here (at least not from the knowledgable people) just by asking the same question multiple times.

 

[IsaacOscar]

Audio electronics don't influence that at all unless they are faulty.

They absolutely can if they include features like PEQ; I would definitely suggest a DAC (like the K13) that has this (PEQ is configurable, so you can adjust your sound to taste, but it takes time to learn how to use it well).

 

[antcollinet]

They absolutely can if they include features like PEQ; I would definitely suggest a DAC (like the K13) that has this (PEQ is configurable, so you can adjust your sound to taste, but it takes time to learn how to use it well).

PEQ is of course a whole other kettle of fish compared to the actual DAC performance, is designed to make audible changes to the sound and does so very successfully.

I have no data to say how it can impact sound stage. Though I guess it is likely that if the room interactions result in a poor sound stage, and the EQ corrects those interactions, then sound stage will be improved.

Nothing to do with the performance of the actual DAC part though. EQ comes under the umbrella of the features I mentioned above which should be what you select a DAC based on - rather than "audio quality"


I'd also agree that if @bugis doesn't currently have PEQ and room correction he should seriously consider getting a DAC with it included. Though it does tend to push the price up a tad.

 

[IsaacOscar]

I have no data to say how it can impact sound stage.

I'm not entirely certain what "soundstage" is (something about making it sound like the sound is coming from further away, and not from the drivers?), but I think I have successfully increased/improved it with my earphone EQ. I don't have speakers though, so I don't know how to do it there.

 

[antcollinet]

I'm not entirely certain what "soundstage" is (something about making it sound like the sound is coming from further away, and not from the drivers?)

An auditory illusion of spread of instruments/voices between (or even outside) the width of the speakers (reflections. from side walls can achieve the latter). Some people also claim soundstage depth (forwards and backwards, or height) but Ive never experienced this with pure stereo.

 

[Opalius]

I’ve been lurking here for a bit and man, it’s a battlefield! I feel like I need to put on a helmet before hitting "post."
Despite the heated debate, I just pulled the trigger and ordered the K13 R2R.

My "justification" (or delusion, depending on who you ask here) comes from spending the last three hours doing a deep-dive into the filters on my standard K11.

I sat there A/B/C testing until my ears hurt, using my DT 1990 and my LCD-X.... I eventually got so deep into the rabbit hole that I had to bribe my wife with chocolate just to get her to help me run a blind test so I could prove to myself I wasn't just imagining things.

And.... Maybe, just maybe, it’s these filter implementations that are doing the heavy lifting and creating the "magic" people argue about?

Short story is that the "NOS" filter gives me a winder soundstage, and on my DT1990 makes able to listen to it for more then 15 min...

Either way, the K11 testing convinced me that I prefer the NOS/Minimum Phase sound enough to see what a dedicated R2R ladder actually does with it. So yeah

If it turns out to be a total placebo, at least the K13 has a remote and a second knob so I don't have to keep leaning over to menu-dive like a madman.

 

[RandomEar]

I’ve been lurking here for a bit and man, it’s a battlefield! I feel like I need to put on a helmet before hitting "post."
Despite the heated debate, I just pulled the trigger and ordered the K13 R2R.

My "justification" (or delusion, depending on who you ask here) comes from spending the last three hours doing a deep-dive into the filters on my standard K11.

I sat there A/B/C testing until my ears hurt, using my DT 1990 and my LCD-X.... I eventually got so deep into the rabbit hole that I had to bribe my wife with chocolate just to get her to help me run a blind test so I could prove to myself I wasn't just imagining things.

And.... Maybe, just maybe, it’s these filter implementations that are doing the heavy lifting and creating the "magic" people argue about?

There's really no magic in DACs. They convert digital to analog as precisely as possible.

Short story is that the "NOS" filter gives me a winder soundstage, and on my DT1990 makes able to listen to it for more then 15 min...

Sound stage is mainly a property of the recording, but influenced to some degree by speakers/room or in your case headphones and ear geometry. NOS is technically not a filter at all and is by far the worst and most imprecise way to convert signals into the analog domain. It generates tons of ultrasonic noise and it shows a light roll-off in the treble region.

Your DT1990s are quite hot above 6 or 7 kHz, which is well known to create a divide in it's user base: Some love it, others hate it for that quality. It seems you don't actually like the overly hot treble and NOS mode lowering the power in that region makes them listenable to you.

My recommendation: Skip NOS mode, use a regular fast oversampling filter and dial in some EQ to tame the treble. It's much more flexible and precise than the "take it or leave it" approach of using a broken thing like NOS.

Either way, the K11 testing convinced me that I prefer the NOS/Minimum Phase sound enough to see what a dedicated R2R ladder actually does with it. So yeah

There's nothing special sound wise about R2R DACs. They often come with a NOS option, which is why many people tend to mix up these two properties. In essence, you can build audibly transparent R2R DACs and the same is true for delta-sigma designs. R2R will on average have a slight disadvantage in measured performance, because the tech is simply inferior.

If it turns out to be a total placebo, at least the K13 has a remote and a second knob so I don't have to keep leaning over to menu-dive like a madman.

Not sure if the K11 offers EQ, but the K13 should as far as I can see. That's a definite advantage in your case and can help you make the DT1990 more agreeable.

 

[AndyBell]

The K11 doesn’t have EQ. It is a slight advantage that the K13 does, if the music source doesn’t offer it.

Most desktop music apps do offer DSP, sometimes with a very wide set of options, so I’m not convinced that EQ in a desktop DAC is a killer feature.

 

[bugis]

I’ve been lurking here for a bit and man, it’s a battlefield! I feel like I need to put on a helmet before hitting "post."
Despite the heated debate, I just pulled the trigger and ordered the K13 R2R.

My "justification" (or delusion, depending on who you ask here) comes from spending the last three hours doing a deep-dive into the filters on my standard K11.

I sat there A/B/C testing until my ears hurt, using my DT 1990 and my LCD-X.... I eventually got so deep into the rabbit hole that I had to bribe my wife with chocolate just to get her to help me run a blind test so I could prove to myself I wasn't just imagining things.

And.... Maybe, just maybe, it’s these filter implementations that are doing the heavy lifting and creating the "magic" people argue about?

Short story is that the "NOS" filter gives me a winder soundstage, and on my DT1990 makes able to listen to it for more then 15 min...

Either way, the K11 testing convinced me that I prefer the NOS/Minimum Phase sound enough to see what a dedicated R2R ladder actually does with it. So yeah

If it turns out to be a total placebo, at least the K13 has a remote and a second knob so I don't have to keep leaning over to menu-dive like a madman.

Here come the 'well-actually' audiophiles to explain why a $10 Apple dongle is technically identical to a $500 DAC.

 

[IsaacOscar]

The K11 doesn’t have EQ. It is a slight advantage that the K13 does, if the music source doesn’t offer it.

Most desktop music apps do offer DSP, sometimes with a very wide set of options, so I’m not convinced that EQ in a desktop DAC is a killer feature.

Spotify certainly doesn't have PEQ (only a small GEQ), and neither do any of the games I play. Instead what you need is a system-wide EQ.

A device PEQ can be more useful though as it can work with any source (just plug some random persons phone into your DAC, and your existing EQ will be applied without needing to do any extra configuration), but they often lack as many features as software, and are less likely to have new features added with updates.

So personally, if I already had a perfectly good DAC, I would try system-wide EQ, before wasting money on a new DAC.

(Personally I do use Fiio's device PEQ, but that's for consistency between my phone and computer's dongle: I often use my headphones on both, so I want them to sound identical).

Note: there are some slight bugs in Fiio's PEQ see here.

 

[IsaacOscar]

Here come the 'well-actually' audiophiles to explain why a $10 Apple dongle is technically identical to a $500 DAC.

Well a $500 DAC will likely have extra features (e.g. more inputs, more outputs, PEQ, etc...), or have a nicer shape or just look nicer (I don't like having extra dangly cable things or white things...)

Sound quality wise though, I think it's best to assume they are all the same unless someone's actually got some measurements demonstrating an audible problem (like this, but even that is minor and not audible except on very specific tracks).

 

[TaxTime]

Came here because I was curious about the K13, being so cheap, and thought it would be about actual owner experiences, etc. Turns out, it's just a bashing thread by members who actually don't own one.

 

[antcollinet]

Came here because I was curious about the K13, being so cheap, and thought it would be about actual owner experiences, etc. Turns out, it's just a bashing thread by members who actually don't own one. a thread where knowledgeable members point out the inherent deficiencies of R2R to help less knowledgeable folks avoid wasting their money.

There, fixed that for you. It's a large part of what this forum is for.

 

[Svend P]

Came here because I was curious about the K13, being so cheap, and thought it would be about actual owner experiences, etc. Turns out, it's just a bashing thread by members who actually don't own one.

Turns out, when it comes to DACs, measurements tell us everything we need to know about how they sound. Ownership has no value exept for telling how good it feels to touch.

Master Thread: Are Measurements Everything or Nothing?

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with: 1. Measurements are not everything. 2. You all never listen. 3. I trust my ears, not graphs. 4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music. 5. You all must not listen to music at all. 6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear? 7...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[AndyBell]

I own the K11 R2R. It’s the same R2R DAC as the K13. It just lacks the extra outputs and Bluetooth, etc.

It sounds fine. I blind tested it against: Topping Dx3 Pro+, FiiO KA15, FiiO BTR17, iFi Go Bar, Fosi ds1 - all sounded the same to my ear at least.

On paper, the R2R has significantly inferior measurements. But I couldn’t hear any difference. If there is an R2R ‘sound’ then this model doesn’t have it.

Feature wise, the K13 is nice and owners are likely to be happy with it.

R2R at best sounds the same as DS DACS. There’s no value in paying more for R2R and many DS devices are measurably, if not audibly, better.

 

[Opalius]

There's really no magic in DACs. They convert digital to analog as precisely as possible.


Sound stage is mainly a property of the recording, but influenced to some degree by speakers/room or in your case headphones and ear geometry. NOS is technically not a filter at all and is by far the worst and most imprecise way to convert signals into the analog domain. It generates tons of ultrasonic noise and it shows a light roll-off in the treble region.

Your DT1990s are quite hot above 6 or 7 kHz, which is well known to create a divide in it's user base: Some love it, others hate it for that quality. It seems you don't actually like the overly hot treble and NOS mode lowering the power in that region makes them listenable to you.

My recommendation: Skip NOS mode, use a regular fast oversampling filter and dial in some EQ to tame the treble. It's much more flexible and precise than the "take it or leave it" approach of using a broken thing like NOS.


There's nothing special sound wise about R2R DACs. They often come with a NOS option, which is why many people tend to mix up these two properties. In essence, you can build audibly transparent R2R DACs and the same is true for delta-sigma designs. R2R will on average have a slight disadvantage in measured performance, because the tech is simply inferior.


Not sure if the K11 offers EQ, but the K13 should as far as I can see. That's a definite advantage in your case and can help you make the DT1990 more agreeable.

I appreciate the technical breakdown, but I have to respectfully disagree based on my own measurements and hands-on testing.

I’m pretty meticulous about my chain. I run Adam D3V speakers EQ’ed to flat from 50Hz to 10kHz using a measurement mic, and I’ve EQ’ed my LCD-X (and even the DT 1990 for kicks) to match that same flat response using pink noise as a reference. I’ve even gone the extra mile of building a DIY in-ear microphone to measure exactly how my own ear geometry and headphone placement affect the frequency response in real-time.

With all that data in front of me, I still find the NOS setting provides the widest perceived soundstage. In NOS, the instruments—especially high-hats—don't feel like they are playing "inside" my head; they sit just outside the cups with a slightly "fuzzy" or airy quality that feels more natural to my ears.

As for the "treble roll-off" argument: I don't actually see a significant drop-off in the highs on my measurements specifically due to NOS. In fact, moving the headphones even 1 cm on my head changes the frequency response more than switching the filter does. If there is a roll-off, it’s negligible compared to the physical fit and seal of the pads.Short story is that it does something, I just can measure it...

At the end of the day, I’m taking a chance on the K13 for the R2R implementation, but even if the "magic" is subtle - of any, the onboard EQ options and the remote are worth the admission price alone.

 

[xlinknz]

Came here because I was curious about the K13, being so cheap, and thought it would be about actual owner experiences, etc. Turns out, it's just a bashing thread by members who actually don't own one.

I own one and have no regrets as I've said early in this thread I got it for features, price and looks and nothing to do with whether its R2R or achieves inaudible parameters

It's a good price, has a good head phone amp, looks good, has PEQ if you use that, has 2 RCA outs, a remote and an app

I'm certainly convinced that expensive DACs are unnecessary.