Fiio K13 R2R - Owners Thread

[mhardy6647]

Does this (linear power supply upgrade) not imply that the DAC has some inferior power supply? Is not the claim from their website...

View attachment 510043

What is this "different sound experience" with the external supply? Is a better one or just more expensive?

... as a student of language I must express my perplexed admiration for the phrase "boosts its anti-interference capabilities"... I can feel my synapses tingling when I read a statement like that.

so... it doesn't interfere more, do I have that right?

 

[voodooless]

Shouldn’t be the case.
It should bypass the AC mains completely.

That doesn’t change anything. There are still DC/DC switching regulators in the thing to generate all the negative voltages:

 

[RickS]

This thread has already suffered from unsubstantiated speculation via R2R claims. The sound difference from an improved power supply is just another variation on the same sort of industry propaganda. In this case, the manufacturer is part of the problem.

Either they need to clearly demonstrate that the power supply makes an audible difference or stop alluding there is one. Same with the R2R aspect. They could also send one to Amir and he will test these claims. Otherwise, these threads just become war ravaged with battles over subjective opinions versus more objective scrutiny. Do we need that here?

 

[mhardy6647]

This thread has already suffered from unsubstantiated speculation via R2R claims. The sound difference from an improved power supply is just another variation on the same sort of industry propaganda. In this case, the manufacturer is part of the problem.

Either they need to clearly demonstrate that the power supply makes an audible difference or stop alluding there is one. Same with the R2R aspect. They could also send one to Amir and he will test these claims. Otherwise, these threads just become war ravaged with battles over subjective opinions versus more objective scrutiny. Do we need that here?

Point taken. I guess the discriminator is whether claims are made with respect to the nature of the difference (by the manufacturer). Otherwise, if, e.g., a manufacturer offers a "bronze level" SMPS and a "gold level" linear supply and touts, say, the build quality or parts quality of the far more expensive option... well, that's marketing, isn't it? Caveat emptor.

If a 25 lb linear P/S makes the purchaser happier while offering quantifiably OK performance; I'd say no harm, no foul.
If there claims that it's better in some substantial way (be that claim quantitative or qualitative), that's probably more egregious.

Just an opinion, though, no more and no less.
(and not worth the space it takes up)

 

[IsaacOscar]

I guess the discriminator is whether claims are made with respect to the nature of the difference (by the manufacturer).

Here are some quotes from the 70W power supplies product page (emphasis mine):

• an ultra-silent, pitch-black background, letting the true essence of your music shine through
• designed for low-noise audio
• delivering solid bass extension and vividly clear soundstage
• minimises micro-interference caused by current fluctuations for a cleaner audio signal
• effectively filters power supply noise to reveal a crystal-clear sonic foundation
• reduces transmission loss and shields against EMI to enhance audio details
• The result is improved dynamic range and ensures that every nuance of the audio is faithfully preserved

All that for only AU$258 (interestingly, a 1200W (i.e. 17 times more power) computer power supply costs about as much)

 

[Guddu]

That doesn’t change anything. There are still DC/DC switching regulators in the thing to generate all the negative voltages:

View attachment 510080

I read somewhere that AC/DC switch is to protect and use DC socket input as preferred input (I guess when both are connected).
Its just another power input option at best though.

 

[antcollinet]

Here are some quotes from the 70W power supplies product page (emphasis mine):

• an ultra-silent, pitch-black background, letting the true essence of your music shine through
• designed for low-noise audio
• delivering solid bass extension and vividly clear soundstage
• minimises micro-interference caused by current fluctuations for a cleaner audio signal
• effectively filters power supply noise to reveal a crystal-clear sonic foundation
• reduces transmission loss and shields against EMI to enhance audio details
• The result is improved dynamic range and ensures that every nuance of the audio is faithfully preserved

All that for only AU$258 (interestingly, a 1200W (i.e. 17 times more power) computer power supply costs about as much)

It reads like they used AI to create that nonsense.


Fiio are losing respect from me day by day.

 

[JSmith]

Fiio are losing respect from me day by day.

Agree, and let's be frank... the influx of new members spouting all the subjective comments in almost every Fiio thread and causing arguments is at the very least suspicious.


JSmith

 

[voodooless]

Agree, and let's be frank... the influx of new members spouting all the subjective comments in almost every Fiio thread and causing arguments is at the very least suspicious.

Not really. This is exactly the customer segment these products try to serve: audiophoolery on a budget.

 

[AndyBell]

I suppose companies such as FiiO have to sell large volumes of units in order to stay in business.

For many (myself included until I came here) a DAC is a mysterious item that performs some magic to the digital audio - hence all the claims of different sounds and so forth.

DAC manufacturers therefore encourage existing customers to keep buying the latest and greatest offerings, hinting (if not outright promising) that there will be a tangible improvement from the ‘upgrade’.

Now DACs are adding PEQ people will hear differences - nothing to do with the DAC of course, but for them the whole unit is the DAC rather than a DAC plus DSP. And so the upgrades and claims about DAC sound differences will continue.

Personally, I think it’s good that these units are adding DSP, as some streaming services don’t and it’s a way to put my preferred settings in one place for every music source to use.

Anyway, as I said to Rick in private correspondence, I’m going to just ignore posts where people make these claims. It just leads to arguments that often go nowhere…

 

[mhardy6647]

Not really. This is exactly the customer segment these products try to serve: audiophoolery on a budget.

You may well be on to something. The relative market size for the tweaks, and concomitant profit margin thereof, may well drive the product offerings... and, frankly, that is the way the for profit world works, and, AFAIK, is supposed to work.

Take a look, e.g. at the US suburbanites buying massive pickup trucks. Very high profit margins for the manufacturers. Of course correlation isn't causation.

As flamboyant pianist/TV personality Liberace responded when asked about his reaction to his many critics, "I'm crying all the way to the bank."

 

[IsaacOscar]

Fiio are losing respect from me day by day.

I like alot of their products (and jave bought some!) Other than their pointless linear power supply though, none of their marketing I've seen seems dishonest (they claim their cables don't add distortion to the audio, but that's exactly what you want a cable to do, and they're not selling them for outrages prices).

You may well be on to something. The relative market size for the tweaks, and concomitant profit margin thereof, may well drive the product offerings... and, frankly, that is the way the for profit world works, and, AFAIK, is supposed to work.

As a non-American, I personally believe in a regulated market: there should be reasonable laws against false advertising.

 

[antcollinet]

I’m going to just ignore posts where people make these claims. It just leads to arguments that often go nowhere…

The problem is with the growing numbers of people who are coming here to post nonsense, if we let the nonsense go unchallenged, this place will just become a cesspit of subjectivism, like most of the other audio forums.


Worse still - for other newbies who are actually coming here actually looking for alternative science based information, see a piece of nonsense posted here, and if no-one has challenged it may well get the impression it is "asr approved"

 

[Mart68]

Worse still - for other newbies who are actually coming here actually looking for alternative science based information, see a piece of nonsense posted here, and if no-one has challenged it may well get the impression it is "asr approved"

This is the issue. The reason people believe all the nonsense in the first place was because it went pretty much unchallenged for decades.

 

[AndyBell]

The problem is with the growing numbers of people who are coming here to post nonsense, if we let the nonsense go unchallenged, this place will just become a cesspit of subjectivism, like most of the other audio forums.


Worse still - for other newbies who are actually coming here actually looking for alternative science based information, see a piece of nonsense posted here, and if no-one has challenged it may well get the impression it is "asr approved"

My thinking was to let the more experienced ones here, like yourself, provide those answers. I have a tendency to overreact in the face of nonsense, which helps no one.

I’ve noticed that often, in the face of unsubstantiated claims, a key post is linked to that provides the answers.

Maybe once that is posted it’s better to not engage with those who seem to be trolling… It just gives them more opportunity to post more nonsense…

 

[Guddu]

Thank you to you all who have shared technical insights and understanding on the subject and the product.
I personally found it useful to have PEQ and option to pick EQ profile for different headphone on the fly.
Pros and Cons of a product or technology are good to know and share, and so as Likes and Dislikes.

Looks like there isn't anymore helpful information to share on the topic now and so perhaps time to give this thread a rest now please!
Otherwise please use it to share any updates, issues (& fixes) observed with this product to help someone, ONLY.

 

[Peterinvan]

So I am a contrarian contrarian. Energy spend on talking about the sound quality of any DAC is wasted. The Philips 14-bit 4-times oversampling DAC was good enough, and since then, any sensible design has been. I know that some 20 years ago, I was puzzled to hear and read about the sound of DACs as something that has major, or any, implecation for the quality of audio reproduction. I knew there could not be much there, but some people continued to act as if a DAC is THE major element in a reproduction chain, while it has hardly more inpact than wiring. So many hours, so many words... wasted. Just buy any DAC you like for its functionality, color, brand, or bragging rights. But don't expect them to sound any different. It is solved.

And yet the vinyl folks will spend thousands of $ on a cartridge. My experience is GI/GO

 

[mhardy6647]

Maybe once that is posted it’s better to not engage with those who seem to be trolling… It just gives them more opportunity to post more nonsense…

that's...well... that's kind of the way trolling works.

 

[Cbdb2]

none of their marketing I've seen seems dishonest

Well theres this BS.

"gold conducts faster, increasing low frequency transients
silver is more suited to transmit higher frequencies
copper imparts warm and mellow vocals"

EE 101 says transients are high freqs so the first 2 are not just total BS they contradict each other. I guess they dont have any EEs working there.
The last line is so wrong its a joke.

 

[IsaacOscar]

"gold conducts faster, increasing low frequency transients
silver is more suited to transmit higher frequencies
copper imparts warm and mellow vocals"

Wow, where did they say that? (Couldn't they just say that gold looks nicer?)

The last line is so wrong its a joke.

Maybe if you swallow a copper cable, the sound of you chocking might sound "warm and mellow"...