FIIO K11 is actually not so brilliant as everybody says

[rnx]

Hello and happy new year!

I recently acquired FIIO K11 after reading some drooling reviews about it being really good one in that price range. As I needed good and reasonable priced USB DAC and amp for my Hifiman HE400SE-s, K11 seemed to fit the bill.

When it arrived, I already knew about those digital filters and had read that preset 6 should be only neutral one. After unpacking, I did the first setup, selected filter number 6 and started to listening my ordinary reference stuff. And then - man, how far from neutral it was... Mids were raised and distorted, highs seemed to be overly bright and oversaturated. And the sound seemed to be compressed and "plastic" (cannot find better term to describe this unnatural feeling). I played with those filter presets and most natural for my ears was filter 4, but it only seemed to have the most neutral EQ, but the sound was compressed and weird even then.

I put the headphones back to my trusty Rotel RC-1572 preamp and voila, the sound was there. Natural, neutral, enjoyable. All the material sounded familiar and good.

It seems that these filters are not bypassable either and one should accept the weird sound profiles that FIIO for whatever reason programmed there. Firmware is up to date and I found same kind of complaints from FIIO support site too, being asked next update with a way to turn off those horrible preset filters.

Maybe someone can share their experiences - I might do something wrong and there is a way to bypass that "chemistry"?

 

[solderdude]

When it arrived, I already knew about those digital filters and had read that preset 6 should be only neutral one. After unpacking, I did the first setup, selected filter number 6 and started to listening my ordinary reference stuff. And then - man, how far from neutral it was... Mids were raised and distorted, highs seemed to be overly bright and oversaturated. And the sound seemed to be compressed and "plastic" (cannot find better term to describe this unnatural feeling). I played with those filter presets and most natural for my ears was filter 4, but it only seemed to have the most neutral EQ, but the sound was compressed and weird even then.

Sounds like a defective device. Would be interesting to have it measured/analyzed by Amir ?
It is not impossible for a device to have a number of them have the same 'error' in it.
QC may well not be up to snuff and FiiO might want to know/investigate.

Alternatively it would be great if you can record it, even with a phone.

 

[Saponetto]

Maybe the low 25 Ohm impedance of the HE400SE could cause limitation to the output stage?

 

[rnx]

Sounds like a defective device. Would be interesting to have it measured/analyzed by Amir ?
It is not impossible for a device to have a number of them have the same 'error' in it.
QC may well not be up to snuff and FiiO might want to know/investigate.

Alternatively it would be great if you can record it, even with a phone.

It's hard to record actually, the difference is so suddle and I mostly felt that something is "wrong". My father in law is an audio engineer, asked him to help figure out, what it is. He listened couple of songs and said the same as I noticed - sound is with weird EQ and it seems that the software tries to apply some kind of frequency dependent compression.
It was really noticeable if we tried to listen Livingston Taylor's "Ink", one of my favourite recordings. Vocal and harmonica sounded off in every filter preset, and it seemed that most presets tried to expand stereo base too. Listening same record on Rotel the sound was the same as I remembered, instruments sounded as they should and all was good.
I don't think that I just have bad copy. It seems that the problem is in those "filters" and on software side. If Fiio would only release firmware that allows to bypass the processing...

 

[solderdude]

Well a sound engineer should be able to record the differences.

Use music where it is most clearly heard and record about 1 min (same excerpt).
Also include the original file that was used.

One cannot bypass the reconstruction filters they are integral part the used DAC chip.

 

[rnx]

Well a sound engineer should be able to record the differences.

Use music where it is most clearly heard and record about 1 min (same excerpt).
Also include the original file that was used.

One cannot bypass the reconstruction filters they are integral part the used DAC chip.

Okay, I would try that later in the evening.

 

[unpluggged]

FIIO K11 is actually not so brilliant as everybody says

Who are "everybody"? Where did I say so?

 

[rnx]

Oh, well, tried to record, but listening it it was so off, that wasn't useable.

Anyway, these artefacts seem to have something to do with CS43198 DAC chipset itself, I found couple of similar complaints for other devices too, that the sound is somehow "off" if compared to AKM/ESS/PCM DACs. As long as I understood, there is some technology used to fake SNR and get higher number to paperwork. I suspect that this is that "frequency dependent compression" effect I hear even in NOS filter configuration.

So now I am open to recommendations for most neutral (and for me "neutral" seems to be the same that some are defining as "sterile/analytical") sounding headphone amp with integrated DAC in let's say sub 300-ish price range. I prefer one piece of equipment, because I will use it on small office desk and I don't want too much cables and boxes there. I like my whole chain to be as neutral and flat as possible, the phones I use are modified Superlux HD681 and Hifiman HE400se at the moment, and at least with K11, Hifimans were better matched using balanced setup, so I think the amp should have both SE and Balanced outputs too, if it cannot put out enormous power through SE configuration.

My current reference DAC is the one that is built in to Rotel RC-1572 MKII (they are saying it is Texas Instruments "premium" DAC, but does not actually say the model, I suspect someting from PCM51XX series). For my ears it sounds as neutral and familiar as every older DAC that I have had experiences (some Burr-Browns and Wolfsons that were used in mid to high end CD decks mostly, and these sounded really similar and quite neutral to me). Having separate DAC is actually quite new for me, bought that Rotel preamp couple of years ago to power my active Tannoys and it was convenient to connect it as DAC to my Volumio streamer. And until now it has been working and sounding fine and as good as any other (mostly older premium class) devices that I have had. Music format that I listen is mostly 16/44.1 PCM ripped from my CD collection, but I have some high res downloads on the disk too and except DSD playback, that my Rotel does not support, I haven't had any problem with my current system at home.

Now this K11 is the first DAC that has audible "sound signature" to me (and not pleasant one, unfortunately). I don't know if it is the DAC chip itself or just bad chinese implementation, but I was expecting quite more, than this "clear and musical" thing that it has

 

[solderdude]

Oh, well, tried to record, but listening it it was so off, that wasn't useable.

You probably tried to record the sound from speakers using a microphone ?
That won't do... one would need to record the analog out of the DAC directly.

Considering you used recordings that have been using an ADC means that one can record it again using an ADC.

I would like to add to use a higher sample rate for recording than the one used in the original recording.

Often it is not the used DAC chip itself but the way it is implemented IRL if audible issues occur.
Still ... it would be nice to know and such recorded test signals (with music) can be very enlightening especially when nulled (using pkane software).
You have not tried the K11 R2R ?

It takes the guessing and suspicions out of it.

 

[rnx]

You probably tried to record the sound from speakers using a microphone ?
That won't do... one would need to record the analog out of the DAC directly.

Considering you used recordings that have been using an ADC means that one can record it again using an ADC.

I would like to add to use a higher sample rate for recording than the one used in the original recording.

Often it is not the used DAC chip itself but the way it is implemented IRL if audible issues occur.
Still ... it would be nice to know and such recorded test signals (with music) can be very enlightening especially when nulled (using pkane software).
You have not tried the K11 R2R ?

It takes the guessing and suspicions out of it.

Yes, I used measuring microphone in front of driver itself, considering, that I miss low frequencies but will get the midrange that is most annoying. I was wrong.

I will try to record from line output, hope that this is sounding the same as through headphone amp. If not, then probably it is badly implemented amplifier stage. And no, I haven't tried R2R yet, probably I even wouldn't as it seems Fiio is trying to sell products that have some "signature coloration".

Haven't had to mess around so much before. For my ears, until now, any decent DAC sounded more or less the same and they all were mostly transparent. K11 is the first oversampling DAC, that I have messed around and all those oversampling filters were weird for one or other reason, some of these had really harsh higher notes, some seemed to expand soundstage unnaturally. Number 4 was the most natural for me, but music sounded slightly "processed" anyway. So I turned on NOS filter and thought this should sound like in the old times. But nope, the processed feeling was there even then. Another interesting discovery that I have - this amp sounds better with HD681-s probably because those are quite far from flat and has that V shaped response that some will prefer. HE400se is quite flat and then the midrange artefacts are more noticeable. Using these somewhere else, I can hear that slight dip between 1 and 3 KHz, mids are laid back and easy to listen, if I apply Amir's EQ, then they sound actually amazingly flat and transparent for the price. Now even without EQ the mids, connected to K11 were way "forward" and harsh. Amir hasn't measured neither K11 or K11 R2R, but has measured other amps using same chipset and these measured perfectly flat and with good distortion figures. So I assume, that mostly manufacturers try to perfect their designs to be as true to recording as possible. But not Fiio, it seems