Steve Dallas
Major Contributor
Neat. What caused you to abandon the MLAs you built?
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Fane 15-300TC 15" full range speaker based project
- Thread starter ppataki
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #82
When I heard that these 15" Fanes were no longer manufactured and that the last pair of them were still available to purchase I decided to make a move
I was mainly driven by curiosity - eventually I just realized that I really prefer the sound of point source vs line source
@ppataki that's a great project, speakers and room both looks so nice, I'm really impressed.
I can only imagine how great they sound as myself I'm a big lover of point source sound. I've had many full range speakers and been using them in open baffle systems. I absolutely know what you mean by 3d holographic sound.
Currently I have FANE Sovereign 12-250TC and they are excellent. Some are saying they are better than their bigger brother - 15-300TC and some are saying that the bigger brother is even better.
I would like to buy these 15-300TC but the problem is that there is no way to buy other than directly from Fane company but they are asking you to buy in bulk like 300 drivers. Otherwise no chance to buy.
Do any of you have any idea how to acquire them ? Or maybe we can find people's who would like to buy them and make a bulk purchase haha
These speakers are the only ones I would like to have and it seems impossible to make it happen.
I can only imagine how great they sound as myself I'm a big lover of point source sound. I've had many full range speakers and been using them in open baffle systems. I absolutely know what you mean by 3d holographic sound.
Currently I have FANE Sovereign 12-250TC and they are excellent. Some are saying they are better than their bigger brother - 15-300TC and some are saying that the bigger brother is even better.
I would like to buy these 15-300TC but the problem is that there is no way to buy other than directly from Fane company but they are asking you to buy in bulk like 300 drivers. Otherwise no chance to buy.
Do any of you have any idea how to acquire them ? Or maybe we can find people's who would like to buy them and make a bulk purchase haha
These speakers are the only ones I would like to have and it seems impossible to make it happen.
- Thread Starter
- #84
Thank you @Sieniek, appreciate it!
Unfortunately as you also rightly said you can no longer buy these drivers new - only in bulk (actually we have had an email conversation about that with Fane and they told us 100 drivers to start with......so no chance.....)
As far as I know, the only option to buy them is to keep searching on the used market - fingers crossed that you will find a pair for sale somewhere.
Hopefully Fane will change their minds about the production of these drivers but who knows....
How many people's would be interested in acquiring them ? Maybe we could get enough interested people's to organise something ?Thank you @Sieniek, appreciate it!
Unfortunately as you also rightly said you can no longer buy these drivers new - only in bulk (actually we have had an email conversation about that with Fane and they told us 100 drivers to start with......so no chance.....)
As far as I know, the only option to buy them is to keep searching on the used market - fingers crossed that you will find a pair for sale somewhere.
Hopefully Fane will change their minds about the production of these drivers but who knows....
I'm emailing with them at the moment and I will try to find a solution.
Did you compared 15-300TC with 12-250TC or any other full range at all ?
Myself I've had an experience with Audio Nirvana Super 15 Alnico (been an owner of them for around two years), AN Classic 15 Alnico, Lii F15, Lii F18, Fane 12-250TC...
Fane 12-250TC which I currently have are the best of all of them that I've had in my life. All of them I've been treated with DSP and Dirac Live with some customisation in frequency response as for my needs and 12-250TC was easily the best, the most flat and the most extended in upper range frequency response. Seriously details coming from this Fane are shockingly good of course as long as you're sitting in the sweet spot or quite close to the sweet spot.
This is why I believe I understand you very well when you are talking about you being not interested at all in off axis etc as you are listening in the sweet spot, I'm exactly the same. I'm like that because I believe in what you can hear from point source stereo speakers is something which you cannot hear with ANY kind of multiway speakers unfortunately. The sound is just much more coherent, holographic 3d like. And especially on such a big full range driver the sound is so smooth and effortless, it's just very addictive.
So...I have my 12-250TC speakers, they are fantastic and the best full range drivers I've heard and tested with Dirac etc but I'm very sad that I cannot buy 15-300TC anywhere because these smaller brother Fane's are the only twelve inch full range drivers I've experienced in my life, all the rest been 15" FR drivers (after I've decided to brake up with conventional boxed speakers and tried my first 15" FR drivers, never looked back for years).
I can see 15-300TC can play very high like the 12-250TC which after Dirac Live calibration can go as high as 18khz.
The only problem with 12" Fane's I have is they cannot go lower than around 120-140hz even after calibration with DL. But I must admit that I'm using them in open baffle which obviously explain why they cannot play lower. It's a bit of a pain because I would like to use my subwoofers with them without a need to use additional woofers in open baffle below these Fane's drivers. But my subwoofers can play as high as 100hz maximum...
All in all the extra surface of 15-300TC is appealing and especially if the top end extension is as good as in the 12-250TC.
My apologies for such a long post, Hopefully I've added something worth reading to this topic.
I wish there could be a way to buy them somewhere... they're saying that dreams come true, I'll better start dreaming haha
Once again, your speakers looks fantastic, the finish and style is just perfect (I love that these Fane's are total black in colour).
- Thread Starter
- #86
You might be interested in this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...overeign-12-250tc-project-measurements.35301/
My friend has the 12-250TC in a sealed box that I designed - all the details are in the above thread
btw how did you find the Lii F15 and F18 - actually my friend is thinking about replacing his 12-250TC with the Lii F18
He is using DSP so uneven response, etc. is not a problem
If you put them in a sealed box and apply heavy DSP they easily go down to ~25Hz (of course it depends on your room and placement as well but check the above link)
F15 and F18 are very similar drivers when it comes to FR and what is interesting is that in my experience these drivers aren't the best ones when it comes to applying dsp to fix that uneven response. I mean that they can be fixed but not as good as Fane's for example which means that in the end with Fane driver your FR will be much flatter in the end.You might be interested in this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...overeign-12-250tc-project-measurements.35301/
My friend has the 12-250TC in a sealed box that I designed - all the details are in the above thread
btw how did you find the Lii F15 and F18 - actually my friend is thinking about replacing his 12-250TC with the Lii F18
He is using DSP so uneven response, etc. is not a problem
If you put them in a sealed box and apply heavy DSP they easily go down to ~25Hz (of course it depends on your room and placement as well but check the above link)
F15 and F18 are absolutely great sounding FR drivers but they aren't the best when it comes to changing their frequency response, they aren't elastic if you know what I mean.
Out of the box F15 and F18 sounds better than Fane's but after DSP applied it's very easy to see that Fane's have more flexibility and in the end can sound so much better.
I've bought them some time ago from Lii website.
The link with Fane thread I've read already couple of times throughout last year I think
Do your Fane 15-300TC play up to 18khz without any restrictions if you are seating in the sweet spot ?
- Thread Starter
- #88
Thank you @Sieniek for sharing your experience about the Lii drivers
Yes they do but only with heavy DSP. As you can see on the measurements without filters it starts dropping at around 14-15kHz but with adequate corrections they go up to 20kHz (at -3dB) actually
The 12-250TCs start to drop at around 11kHz in my friend's living room but again, with adequate correction they also go up to 20kHz at -3dB
I need to add that Dirac Live is usually not capable enough to fix the frequency response of these kind of drivers. It will not be able to boost the highs and in some cases not even the lows. I use REW to generate correction filters (40-50 filters / channel) and insert those into a convolution engine then apply additional low and high shelf filters to set the tonality according to personal taste.
I would presume that this methodology could also tame the Lii drivers' frequency response to fully flat
Yes they do but only with heavy DSP. As you can see on the measurements without filters it starts dropping at around 14-15kHz but with adequate corrections they go up to 20kHz (at -3dB) actually
The 12-250TCs start to drop at around 11kHz in my friend's living room but again, with adequate correction they also go up to 20kHz at -3dB
I need to add that Dirac Live is usually not capable enough to fix the frequency response of these kind of drivers. It will not be able to boost the highs and in some cases not even the lows. I use REW to generate correction filters (40-50 filters / channel) and insert those into a convolution engine then apply additional low and high shelf filters to set the tonality according to personal taste.
I would presume that this methodology could also tame the Lii drivers' frequency response to fully flat
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
After decades of experimenting with dozens of full range drivers, I was recently tempted by the F15 from Lii Audio. Because of their high efficiency they harmonize very well with DHT SET amps. I put them in a U-frame dipole open baffle cabinet and was really surprised how good they sound. As I know a lot of full range drivers I have a good impression of them. Never had such big ones before. Very good high frequency response and controlled bass. Lii-Audio advises against trying to linearize the frequency response with a correction network. I agree with this.
ihear21khz
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Any chance you can share your U frame dipole design with me?
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
I am sorry, in this case I can not fulfill the request, unfortunately. I have nothing documented of this experimental project except a few photos and I no longer have these speakers in the house.
ihear21khz
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- Jun 18, 2022
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Thank you Johannes.
Was just checking out your measurements since you mentioned them in the VBA thread.
First thing just from the screenshots you put in this thread, I can see there are still "phase wobbles" in your response. I don't understand it myself, but I keep seeing comments from the experts that say that magnitude and phase are tied together in many real world phenomenon and with IIR filters. So a big crank in the phase corresponds to a big change in the magnitude (dip or peak). I've highlighted a few below;
Like I've seen in the VBA thread, squashing the GD bumps with IIR filters that ring = smoothing the phase = reducing the ringing. The REW EQ you used did reduce the ringing a little, but not as much as DL-ART is doing, or that I am seeing in examples from my own room. This is because not many of the filters were particularly strong. They need to be high Q to ring opposite to a mode. Q values 12-18 seem decent, along with a decent amount of dB adjustment to give the ringing some strength.
FIR filters on the hand decouple phase and magnitude, and can adjust one or the other (or both, if "mimicking" IIR filters). But I imagine fixing only one or the other wont cause the ringing signal side that is required to cancel the room based ringing.
This screenshot shows that there are still "big spikes" in the <200Hz range, and the GD overlay shows that few of the bumps have been squashed by any great amount;
Here's 80Hz Filtered IR;
It's got all the classic reflection issues going on after the main wave (the ringing in room). I tried to fix it and got it a little better, but not enough to warrant showing. Actually it was harder than my own room because whatever is happening at ~75Hz is not being affected much by IIR filters. This could suggest the issue is "non-linear" (I think that's the term), as in it might be something to do with the driver or box etc.
I also briefly tried to fix 63Hz filtered IR, but there is also a strange problem at ~57Hz. And I tried 50Hz, but there is many small problems at 40-50Hz that overlap. I tried higher at like 130Hz, but there are many problems crammed together the higher the frequency goes. You might try experimenting with getting REW to fix the modes in the base measure, which requires using no smoothing, and I think REW works best if you fill out the modal analysis on the EQ screen. The modal analysis is pretty cool because it tries to find the modes and then shows little "tents" of where the modes are affecting the response.
First thing just from the screenshots you put in this thread, I can see there are still "phase wobbles" in your response. I don't understand it myself, but I keep seeing comments from the experts that say that magnitude and phase are tied together in many real world phenomenon and with IIR filters. So a big crank in the phase corresponds to a big change in the magnitude (dip or peak). I've highlighted a few below;
Like I've seen in the VBA thread, squashing the GD bumps with IIR filters that ring = smoothing the phase = reducing the ringing. The REW EQ you used did reduce the ringing a little, but not as much as DL-ART is doing, or that I am seeing in examples from my own room. This is because not many of the filters were particularly strong. They need to be high Q to ring opposite to a mode. Q values 12-18 seem decent, along with a decent amount of dB adjustment to give the ringing some strength.
FIR filters on the hand decouple phase and magnitude, and can adjust one or the other (or both, if "mimicking" IIR filters). But I imagine fixing only one or the other wont cause the ringing signal side that is required to cancel the room based ringing.
This screenshot shows that there are still "big spikes" in the <200Hz range, and the GD overlay shows that few of the bumps have been squashed by any great amount;
Here's 80Hz Filtered IR;
It's got all the classic reflection issues going on after the main wave (the ringing in room). I tried to fix it and got it a little better, but not enough to warrant showing. Actually it was harder than my own room because whatever is happening at ~75Hz is not being affected much by IIR filters. This could suggest the issue is "non-linear" (I think that's the term), as in it might be something to do with the driver or box etc.
I also briefly tried to fix 63Hz filtered IR, but there is also a strange problem at ~57Hz. And I tried 50Hz, but there is many small problems at 40-50Hz that overlap. I tried higher at like 130Hz, but there are many problems crammed together the higher the frequency goes. You might try experimenting with getting REW to fix the modes in the base measure, which requires using no smoothing, and I think REW works best if you fill out the modal analysis on the EQ screen. The modal analysis is pretty cool because it tries to find the modes and then shows little "tents" of where the modes are affecting the response.
- Thread Starter
- #94
A lot has changed since I posted these measurements
In a few days I will post the latest ones
The above corrected response was generated using min phase low shelf and high shelf preEQ filters then using REW to generate correction filters (30-40 filters per channel)
Now I am using linear phase low shelf preEQ and then Dirac Live 3.6
In a few days I will post the latest ones
The above corrected response was generated using min phase low shelf and high shelf preEQ filters then using REW to generate correction filters (30-40 filters per channel)
Now I am using linear phase low shelf preEQ and then Dirac Live 3.6
I was happy with the Fane 250tc, using an old 10 band equalizer......
All I did was eq down that hump 1-3khz, boost the hf, then sit a bit off axis.
Easily covered a couch at 8' away.
All I did was eq down that hump 1-3khz, boost the hf, then sit a bit off axis.
Easily covered a couch at 8' away.
jamescarter1982
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sealed ? or vented please
- Thread Starter
- #97
@neRok
So see here the latest measurements:
drive.google.com
I have measured L then R then LR with Dirac (using linear phase preEQ low-shelf) then measured the same but with postEQ too (minimum phase low shelf, removed lows from the side channel using mid-side processing and some high-shelf too)
So see here the latest measurements:
20230925 Dirac LPpre MPpost.mdat
drive.google.com
I have measured L then R then LR with Dirac (using linear phase preEQ low-shelf) then measured the same but with postEQ too (minimum phase low shelf, removed lows from the side channel using mid-side processing and some high-shelf too)
sealed................... Maybe 3ft3, on ground, golden ratios, Under TV.
Sealed vs vented, to me, you can hear a 40hz tuning as a thunk thunk. But 27-30hz is fine to my ears. I plugged my 27hz tuned (butterworth 4th) for a theoretical "faster bass", instead I just got 6db LESS bass.
An 80hz crossover does far more damage to the integration of a subwoofer to me.
Sealed vs vented, to me, you can hear a 40hz tuning as a thunk thunk. But 27-30hz is fine to my ears. I plugged my 27hz tuned (butterworth 4th) for a theoretical "faster bass", instead I just got 6db LESS bass.
An 80hz crossover does far more damage to the integration of a subwoofer to me.
