Fail with Maop 11.2 matched pair

[Ruhled]

...so you are boosting that null by about 20db at 65hz? If you want smooth frequency response why are you using full range drivers? What is the rest of your signal chain? Have you verified that chain is flat to 20khz?

 

[MusicIsADream]

Thank you, that is interesting, never heard of it - I will give it a try!
I currently sit exactly at the tip (or top) of the equilateral triangle

For example the hihat in "Sisters of Mercy - Vision Thing LP - More" is very instable regarding the stage position with my maops in near field

 

[MusicIsADream]

...so you are boosting that null by about 20db at 65hz? If you want smooth frequency response why are you using full range drivers? What is the rest of your signal chain? Have you verified that chain is flat to 20khz?

Yes, I tested both amps with other speakers.

I switched from yamaha hs8 to maops 11 in the hope for a better 3D stage and sound detail resolution.

A smooth frequency response with the house curve I prefer is standard for me.

 

[ppataki]

For example the hihat in "Sisters of Mercy - Vision Thing LP - More" is very instable regarding the stage position with my maops in near field

For me the hihat (or what I think the hihat is ) is coming from the left - very much panned to the left, like it is coming from the left speaker itself only

 

[MusicIsADream]

For me the hihat (or what I think the hihat is ) is coming from the left - very much panned to the left, like it is coming from the left speaker itself only

There should be a listening position where it is in the center. Even slightly on the right side.

Does it stay on the left when you move from between the speakers to the top of the listening triangle and beyond?

On the "daft punk - random access memories lp" the hihat tends to be right sided for example. It should be close to the snare in the center.

Another example is the left shaker on "Eagles - Hell freezes over (remaster 2018) - hotel california (live on Mt 1994)"
starting around 00:50 min. It is another "left side glue" vs "on stage" one. It should sit close to the bass drum sound in the mix...

 

[ppataki]

There should be a listening position where it is in the center. Even slightly on the right side.

I just listened to it with headphones too, it is the same, on the hard left
Have you tried it with a headphone?
I guess it shall show where is shall be coming from, really

 

[MusicIsADream]

Couldn't wait till the weekend...

Tested the maop speaker in and out of the cabinet. Also disconnected the cables to the banana ports and linked the speaker directly via a 2,5mm cable to the amp.

Blue is with the cabinet attached. Yellow without.

After now 60 - 80 hours of play time (mostly under 70db(a) on listening position - 1m distance to speaker) and even quieter at night the harsh sound is mostly gone.

I applied some new Eqs...
Yellow is with, green without.

The frequency range extends from 38hz to 17.5khz. The sweet spot is very narrow.

The listening experience in the 60db(a) area (+/-10 db dynamic range) is very good, clear instrument separation with high resolution. At around 70 dB (a) they become very impressive. After the burn in time (100 - 200 hours of soft play time should be enough...) , I will change to a new amp. Looking forward to the final experience.


Regarding the frequency drop at 10khz and it's cause, I guess it is the room. Both test rooms have an immense amount of window surface, could this be the "filter"?
Unfortunately the rooms don't have any curtains to test if the windows are the issue.

 

[MusicIsADream]

I just listened to it with headphones too, it is the same, on the hard left
Have you tried it with a headphone?
I guess it shall show where is shall be coming from, really

You are right. Just tested the sister of mercy and the eagles songs I mentioned on the truth ear in ears. Both strong on the left...

 

[312elements]

I really doubt that glass is attenuating the highs, I’d be more inclined to be believe the opposite actually. Does your listening impression match the measurements? Is whatever you’re using to measure calibrated?

How do the listening impressions compare to your other build?

Small sweet spot sounds familiar. I’ve never used them on a desktop but I would imagine that would exasperate the width issue. I’m about 7’ from mine.

If time money and or interest allow…. These will sound different and likely better with a subwoofer. That cone has to be traveling quite a bit with that bass boost.

 

[MusicIsADream]

I really doubt that glass is attenuating the highs, I’d be more inclined to be believe the opposite actually. Does your listening impression match the measurements? Is whatever you’re using to measure calibrated?

How do the listening impressions compare to your other build?

Small sweet spot sounds familiar. I’ve never used them on a desktop but I would imagine that would exasperate the width issue. I’m about 7’ from mine.

If time money and or interest allow…. These will sound different and likely better with a subwoofer. That cone has to be traveling quite a bit with that bass boost.

Yes, the listening impression matches the measurements. The microphone is calibrated and the file integrated with REW. I use a behringer ecm8000. Pointing at the middle between the speakers at the hight of my ears at listening position.

The sound opens up and gets clearer with the eq in the kHz frequencies...if there is to much eq in that area voices and cymbals become sizzling.

Regarding subwoofer, I have to many questions right now, I need to work through them with Google and Co. ...
How can I integrate a subwoofer with a stereo amp without sub out? Is using a Y cable from the laptop and going with one to sub and one to the amp an option?
How do I measure and eq the whole thing as I only have eq options on the laptop? Can I measure and apply one eq for both systems as "one" ? Will the sub work by sitting under the table ... Any sub suggestions for such a noob case? ;-)

 

[312elements]

Yes, the listening impression matches the measurements. The microphone is calibrated and the file integrated with REW. I use a behringer ecm8000. Pointing at the middle between the speakers at the hight of my ears at listening position.

The sound opens up and gets clearer with the eq in the kHz frequencies...if there is to much eq in that area voices and cymbals become sizzling.

Regarding subwoofer, I have to many questions right now, I need to work through them with Google and Co. ...
How can I integrate a subwoofer with a stereo amp without sub out? Is using a Y cable from the laptop and going with one to sub and one to the amp an option?
How do I measure and eq the whole thing as I only have eq options on the laptop? Can I measure and apply one eq for both systems as "one" ? Will the sub work by sitting under the table ... Any sub suggestions for such a noob case? ;-)

Let's talk through the subwoofer thing when you're ready to have that talk. There are ways... The easiest would be a Y cable and carefully selected passive line level crossover (first order) and you can blend the sub in from there, but it's super situationally dependent. That will take care of the high pass and a lot of subs and plate amps have a built in lowpass filter. That said... at that point it might just make more sense to get something like the more affordable Motu devices so that you could do it the right way with 4 separate channels.

 

[MusicIsADream]

Let's talk through the subwoofer thing when you're ready to have that talk. There are ways... The easiest would be a Y cable and carefully selected passive line level crossover (first order) and you can blend the sub in from there, but it's super situationally dependent. That will take care of the high pass and a lot of subs and plate amps have a built in lowpass filter. That said... at that point it might just make more sense to get something like the more affordable Motu devices so that you could do it the right way with 4 separate channels.

As far as I got it now an old svs sb 1000 between laptop and amp could be a solution as it has line in/out and the option to choose the crossover frequency.

The big question is for me, how the way through the svs will interact with the signal quality compared to go directly from laptop dac to stereo amp?


Also, if I address the missing lows in the maops up to 150hz, I will definitely hear bass coming from above (maop) and from under the desk (sub).
So adding the sub from 50hz below would mean to still give the maops massiv bass boost in eq.

Anyway the frequency range could be extended down to 20hz area,I guess.

 

[ppataki]

As far as I got it now an old svs sb 1000 between laptop and amp could be a solution as it has line in/out and the option to choose the crossover frequency.

You can't choose the crossover frequency on the SVS SB-1000, you can set the lowpass filter frequency value with the corresponding knob in the back of the unit and if you use the line out RCA connection there is a built-in highpass filter at 80Hz 12dB/octave.
So you can vary the frequency of the lowpass component (not the slope, that is also fixed at 12dB/octave) and you have a fixed highpass on the RCA out

This may or may not work well with your speakers/room/placement, etc. but at least it is worth a try

Integrating a sub is not a walk-in-the-park, there are many many threads about it here, especially on the correct delay measurement/setting

If you have a PC as the source I would recommend the same approach that @312elements has suggested: get a multichannel DAC and have all speakers on a separate channel; that way you can individually control their volume, delay, polarity, highpass-lowpass frequency, slope and phase type, EQ, etc.....
You can read some of my subwoofer related build posts where I mention this topic too + you can google ASR for many more threads about the same

Essentially the steps you will need to take:
- figure out the sub placement in the room (by performing measurements with REW). Check for the best frequency curve and temporal curves (wavelet, step, GD - this is very important and people usually overlook those). Be bold with the placement, even behind you (if integrated correctly you will not notice that the bass is coming from behind you)
- align the volume of the main speakers and the sub
- set the delay for the speakers individually (I usually take the front left as the reference and perform acoustic timing measurements to get the correct delay values)
- set the crossover (I usually use 80Hz 24dB/octave both for low- and highpass in linear phase but again, this is subject to measurement, measurement, measurement and individual taste). This step will also include playing around with the polarity of the sub.

10 people will probably tell you 11 ways to perform the above steps but that's the beauty of this whole hobby - you will need to try it for yourself

 

[DWPress]

I see you're using SoundSource and Apple's AU plugins for PEQ. Here's a tip; Ikjb QRange is a free plugin that will give you 12 slots of PEQ and they can be delegated to either or both channels. Have fun.

 

[MusicIsADream]

Right now the plan is to get a

- Audient id14 mkii (motu m4 was also considered)
- Svs Sb 1000 (no pro version, and no DIY sub, many options were considered, but finally came back to the svs sb 1000)

The set up the macbook m3 with Soundsource and plug ins.

- ikjb q range (or similar) for low and high pass on the 1+2 (stereo) / 3+4 (subwoofer) channels
- aunband eq for optimisation of the 2.1 with rew

Goal is to take the bass load of the maop 11 (the bass is amazing right now, but they move even on low loudness levels a lot because of excessive eq s in 40 to 160hz area...) and keep a tight and deep bass in the near field listening position.

The subwoofer will be placed below the desk (only option). It will connected to the audient via 6,3mm jack to cinch cable.

Delay will be checked (measured),
High / low pass freq. set up. (measured plus subjective experience of Soundsource locating),
2.1 freq. Response. optimised to housecurve (measured).

Any suggestions or further tips?

Going through the sub topic the last days was confusing in two ways, first is build quality of DIY with amplifing them as a topic on its own and second is how to manage 2.1 Eqs with a MacBook. The last one is the more annoying to me!

Maybe when I solved the sub integration on mac os I will plan a DIY sub. Right know I am looking forward to hear the maop without a hell of Bass eq load. ;-)

 

[ppataki]

Right now the plan is to get a

- Audient id14 mkii (motu m4 was also considered)
- Svs Sb 1000 (no pro version, and no DIY sub, many options were considered, but finally came back to the svs sb 1000)

The set up the macbook m3 with Soundsource and plug ins.

- ikjb q range (or similar) for low and high pass on the 1+2 (stereo) / 3+4 (subwoofer) channels
- aunband eq for optimisation of the 2.1 with rew

Goal is to take the bass load of the maop 11 (the bass is amazing right now, but they move even on low loudness levels a lot because of excessive eq s in 40 to 160hz area...) and keep a tight and deep bass in the near field listening position.

The subwoofer will be placed below the desk (only option). It will connected to the audient via 6,3mm jack to cinch cable.

Delay will be checked (measured),
High / low pass freq. set up. (measured plus subjective experience of Soundsource locating),
2.1 freq. Response. optimised to housecurve (measured).

Any suggestions or further tips?

Going through the sub topic the last days was confusing in two ways, first is build quality of DIY with amplifing them as a topic on its own and second is how to manage 2.1 Eqs with a MacBook. The last one is the more annoying to me!

Maybe when I solved the sub integration on mac os I will plan a DIY sub. Right know I am looking forward to hear the maop without a hell of Bass eq load. ;-)

Unfortunately I have no experience whatsoever with macOS (I use Win11) so I will let the more experienced fellow members here comment on the DSP front
But it sounds like a good way forward to me!

 

[MusicIsADream]

Unfortunately I have no experience whatsoever with macOS (I use Win11) so I will let the more experienced fellow members here comment on the DSP front
But it sounds like a good way forward to me!

Thanks, btw. your DIY subwoofer threads are amazing!

 

[ppataki]

Thanks, btw. your DIY subwoofer threads are amazing!

Thank you, much appreciated!

This is the latest one, still in progress:

Using four bass guitar drivers to build a dual opposed subwoofer project

Even the title is unorthodox :) I have recently built a dual opposed subwoofer (DOS) for my home office which was a hugely successful project for me. Once it was done I have taken it downstairs in my living room and started playing around with what I can do with two subs instead of just one...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Ktacos]

Some speaker manufacturers on this forum have stated they don't use Mark audio stuff because the real world data differs so much from their graphs the company shares. You may just be running into that.

The break in stuff is just nonsense. Breaking barely changes anything and definitely nothing audible, and it wills certainly add additional top end extension.

 

[MusicIsADream]

All right, spend the weekend with adding the subwoofer and learned a lot. And failed a lot... also recognised that I am not good in buying gear in regards of getting the functionality I was thinking of ...

First, measuring position with the mark audios is the key. +/-5cm closer and the highs (+10khz) are there or not!

Second, the audient id14 mk2 has only stereo mirrored to six outputs. Even the headphone output can not be used with another signal.
So no chance for a high pass filter for the stereo amp via macbook + audient.
Maybe I will change the audient for another interface. Maybe, because even with not having the supposed functionality the quality of the inputs is really amazing for me.

Third, getting the svs pro version gave handy features and protected me from crawling under the table 100 times.. not knowing that the pro version has no high pass filter as the classic had, when using cinch line through, just gave me another moment of "why me".

So the maop first played in 2.1 with the svs sb 1000 pro via the audient using the 1+2 for the stereo amp and the mirrored 3+4 outputs form the audient for the sub.
As I switched to connect the stereo amp also to the sub the sound became better. Measured phase, etc. but simply plugging the amp to the sub improved the sound in regards of clarity. If not plugged to the sub, polarity changed a lot too.

My delay measurement s where not useful with rew... Was not able to get reasonable numbers for the sub.

Using the cinch input / output of the svs, and some eqs is giving a good result. Still the bass is not as sharp as it was with the yamaha hs8 or the hard core eq pushed maops.

In search for more clarity in the bass sound, I am looking for solutions. It is not as tight and sharp sounding as I hoped for.

I tried, plugging the bass ports. This helped to get some effect similar to a high pass, as the speakers do not perform well on the listening position without a lot of +EQ in the lower than 100hz area. And the whole bass peak between 40 - 60 hz from the speakers got removed that way.

So I wonder if, a true high pass via another interface would give a big improvement?
On the other hand, I would lose the improving of delay, etc. that appears by using the cinch out of the svs to the stereo amp.

Next weekend I will try, if I cut off the signals below 20hz (right now it goes down to 16hz adjusted to house curve with eq) and above 20.000hz, if this could improve the clarity of stage and sound.

Also setting the sub (right now on laminate floor) on a heavy stone plate could lower the vibrations in the floor and improve the sound of the sub, or?