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Extreme Snake Oil

egellings

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Capitalism works if there is genuine competition; not so much when there is just the look of competition.
 

Arianator26

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I actually don’t think expensive power cables are that snake-oily…
In the end what we’re listening to is just electric current transformed into sound waves so good quality clean power can make a difference. Of course like for everything there’s the law of diminishing returns.
What I think is really snake oil are expensive digital cables. The signal is always the same no matter how fancy your usb cable might be built
 

Ken1951

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I actually don’t think expensive power cables are that snake-oily…
In the end what we’re listening to is just electric current transformed into sound waves so good quality clean power can make a difference. Of course like for everything there’s the law of diminishing returns.
What I think is really snake oil are expensive digital cables. The signal is always the same no matter how fancy your usb cable might be built
So, that last 36" from the wall makes all the difference?
:facepalm:
 

Doodski

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I actually don’t think expensive power cables are that snake-oily…
In the end what we’re listening to is just electric current transformed into sound waves so good quality clean power can make a difference. Of course like for everything there’s the law of diminishing returns.
What I think is really snake oil are expensive digital cables. The signal is always the same no matter how fancy your usb cable might be built
How do you explain the dozens of yards or hundreds of feet of solid copper core conductor found before a ~1m expensive power cable that is said to improve the AC power transfer? Don't you think that is strange?
 

Doodski

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I actually don’t think expensive power cables are that snake-oily…
In the end what we’re listening to is just electric current transformed into sound waves so good quality clean power can make a difference. Of course like for everything there’s the law of diminishing returns.
What I think is really snake oil are expensive digital cables. The signal is always the same no matter how fancy your usb cable might be built
Come on.... Common sense applies here... :D
 

Arianator26

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How do you explain the dozens of yards or hundreds of feet of solid copper core conductor found before a ~1m expensive power cable that is said to improve the AC power transfer? Don't you think that is strange?
Like I said there’s a limit for everything and if it’s just 1% quality improvement or at least 1% less static noise it’s not entirely worthless. And it’s not just the cable. It’s the connector itself as well.
But isn’t this exactly what audiophiles get the most joy from? Minimal improvement for maximum expenses?
 

Doodski

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Like I said there’s a limit for everything and if it’s just 1% quality improvement or at least 1% less static noise it’s not entirely worthless. And it’s not just the cable. It’s the connector itself as well.
But isn’t this exactly what audiophiles get the most joy from? Minimal improvement for maximum expenses?
It's not even 1% and besides that the unit's power supply has all the capability to smooth out any sort of static noise or whatever you want to call that. It's all designed into the circuitry that static is smoothed into nothingness. Expensive power cables are a 100% waste of cash and waste the worlds resources. Trust your gut on this. There is no science in a expensive power cable for the last ~1m. You've been groomed and brainwashed for decades by industry abusers that simply want your cash in huge quantity with huge profit margins.

As per the connector the connectors in decent quality AC cords have a low enough resistance that there is nothing to be gained. If you still want a really difficult to insert and disconnect power cord then buy hospital grade cords for a couple dollars more. You know what expensive metrology gear comes with for a power cable? They come with a $4 or $5 dollar power cable with good quality copper conductor and that's it. Those metrology instruments are used to measure to NIST standards that are world standards use to measure down to parts per million or billion.
 

Arianator26

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It's not even 1% and besides that the unit's power supply has all the capability to smooth out any sort of static noise or whatever you want to call that. It's all designed into the circuitry that static is smoothed into nothingness. Expensive power cables are a 100% waste of cash and waste the worlds resources. Trust your gut on this. There is no science in a expensive power cable for the last ~1m. You've been groomed and brainwashed for decades by industry abusers that simply want your cash in huge quantity with huge profit margins.

As per the connector the connectors in decent quality AC cords have a low enough resistance that there is nothing to be gained. If you still want a really difficult to insert and disconnect power cord then buy hospital grade cords for a couple dollars more. You know what expensive metrology gear comes with for a power cable? They come with a $4 or $5 dollar power cable with good quality copper conductor and that's it. Those metrology instruments are used to measure to NIST standards that are world standards use to measure down to parts per million or billion.
I’ve bought one extra power cable for my integrated so far. It was 100 bucks so nothing too fancy. In your eyes still way too much sure, but I could hear a clear improvement in sound quality. Maybe it was just in my imagination. I don’t even know what to believe anymore after just a week on this forum lol

There’s literally power conditioners for thousands of dollars out there that are nothing but fancy power strips. They have to be good for something right?
 

Kal Rubinson

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In the end what we’re listening to is just electric current transformed into sound waves so good quality clean power can make a difference
You left out the intermediary process wherein your devices filter the AC and convert it to DC (and, often, filter it again). No wavy gravy is transformed into sound waves (unless its in the music).
Maybe it was just in my imagination.
Could be.
There’s literally power conditioners for thousands of dollars out there that are nothing but fancy power strips. They have to be good for something right?
It is possible but cannot presumed.
 

Doodski

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I’ve bought one extra power cable for my integrated so far. It was 100 bucks so nothing too fancy. In your eyes still way too much sure, but I could hear a clear improvement in sound quality. Maybe it was just in my imagination. I don’t even know what to believe anymore after just a week on this forum lol

There’s literally power conditioners for thousands of dollars out there that are nothing but fancy power strips. They have to be good for something right?
If you took the time to do a blind listening test you would see that the power cable has zero difference in sound at the ear. ASR has done tests of speaker cables, AC mains cables and digital cables and there was zero nada zilch scientific difference and that was from a test unit that has NIST traceable standards all the way back to France where the metrology standards are stored and referenced from. That's a very firm answer.

As per power conditioners most are rubbish snake oil like AC power cords. Yes, there are conditioners that are used for metrology measurement laboratories although as I mentioned the measures involved are done in temperature and humidity controlled environments that commonly measure down to 0.000,000,000,000,1 resolution. Even touching the unit or imparting body heat to the device under test will cause the test results to be skewed. Home audio does not need this sort of power smoothing. To impart this technology if anybody does for home audio is absurd and a cash grab and another waste of the worlds resources.
 

Arianator26

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If you took the time to do a blind listening test you would see that the power cable has zero difference in sound at the ear. ASR has done tests of speaker cables, AC mains cables and digital cables and there was zero nada zilch scientific difference and that was from a test unit that has NIST traceable standards all the way back to France where the metrology standards are stored and referenced from. That's a very firm answer.

As per power conditioners most are rubbish snake oil like AC power cords. Yes, there are conditioners that are used for metrology measurement laboratories although as I mentioned the measures involved are done in temperature and humidity controlled environments that commonly measure down to 0.000,000,000,000,1 resolution. Even touching the unit or imparting body heat to the device under test will cause the test results to be skewed. Home audio does not need this sort of power smoothing. To impart this technology if anybody does for home audio is absurd and a cash grab and another waste of the worlds resources.
Wait? Speaker cables too? My entire world is crumbling. There has to be better signal transmission with better speaker cables. I refuse to believe there isn’t.
But I’m gonna watch some of those comparison videos. You’ve really invoked my interest now
 

Doodski

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Wait? Speaker cables too? My entire world is crumbling. There has to be better signal transmission with better speaker cables. I refuse to believe there isn’t.
But I’m gonna watch some of those comparison videos. You’ve really invoked my interest now
In the quantum physics realm as it applies to home audio the speaker cable is considered a resister. Pure resisters do not impart changes to the AC or DC signal going through it. In real life speaker cables do have reactance that takes the form of 2 different kinds. One is inductive reactance and the other is capacitive reactance. So now that we have that out of the way let's get to what is real and not theoretical. The reality is that with contemporary amplifiers a 12G speaker wire is all one needs for near anything less than say 40 or 50 feet long runs. The reactance is so tiny that it is not audible although it can be calculated by serious people needing such calculations for high voltage power transfer and such or for RF signals it is not a factor in audio frequency ranges of energy @ 20Hz to 20kHz. In the grand scheme of energy power transfer of 20Hz to 20kHz it is very low frequency stuff and does not need snake oil cables.
 
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sq225917

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Better in what way? Analogue Cables don't introduce noise, they don't introduce audible phase delays, all the might do is marginally roll off the treble by a very small amount.

All that matters is that they are thick enough, by which we mean 2mm csa per conductor for power and 4mm csa per wire for anything below knocking on the door of 1000w of power amp. For interconnects .5mm is overkill.
 

Arianator26

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Better in what way? Analogue Cables don't introduce noise, they don't introduce audible phase delays, all the might do is marginally roll off the treble by a very small amount.

All that matters is that they are thick enough, by which we mean 2mm csa per conductor for power and 4mm csa per wire for anything below knocking on the door of 1000w of power amp. For interconnects .5mm is overkill.
Better in a way that nothing is lost. I was often told that no matter how good your amp and speakers are, if your cable is insufficient, you will lose information thus compressing and diminishing the sound quality. But your explanations are really cool I must say. I’m not a scientific guy when it comes to music. That’s why I signed up here. To learn something from that perspective
 

Doodski

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all the might do is marginally roll off the treble by a very small amount.
... and that is a calculated infinitesimal amount that has no place in the real world of the auditory reality of what a person can hear or can even be measured unless in tightly regulated laboratory conditions as I mentioned previously in a post..
 

Doodski

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Better in a way that nothing is lost. I was often told that no matter how good your amp and speakers are, if your cable is insufficient, you will lose information thus compressing and diminishing the sound quality.
That is goobledy gook tech talk by people that are not in the know or they have motives not for your good.
 

DonR

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Better in a way that nothing is lost. I was often told that no matter how good your amp and speakers are, if your cable is insufficient, you will lose information thus compressing and diminishing the sound quality. But your explanations are really cool I must say. I’m not a scientific guy when it comes to music. That’s why I signed up here. To learn something from that perspective
You have been misinformed.
 

Audiofire

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Capitalism works if there is genuine competition; not so much when there is just the look of competition.
The look of competition is when for example there are false marketing claims made about snake oil. That is also why the price of the snake oil itself is not the end of the story. The false marketing claims are included in extreme snake oil and violate the Marketing Practices Act of Denmark (Unfair Commercial Practices Directive of the EU).
 

BDWoody

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I was often told that no matter how good your amp and speakers are, if your cable is insufficient, you will lose information thus compressing and diminishing the sound quality.

That's where they make their REAL (sucker) money...

Margins on cables is in the near-criminal category. Digital even more-so.
 
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