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Extreme Snake Oil

fpitas

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I know plenty of good engineers who buy into these “snake oils”.
I don’t know why there’s so many threads on this forum about “snake oils”. People are free to buy whatever they want.
I'm not sure I'd trust an engineer that did, honestly.
 

Speedskater

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To paraphrase Stephen Colbert (October 2005)
The audio world has become increasingly "divided between those who think with their heads and those who know with their hearts".
 

Doodski

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To paraphrase Stephen Colbert (October 2005)
The audio world has become increasingly "divided between those who think with their heads and those who know with their hearts".
A cliché is a cliché is a cliché. easy on the cliché stuff.
 

antcollinet

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My take is some of it has to be this- I'm shopping for a CD player too many choices ! I narrowed it down to Marantz CD6007 or the Nad C538 than saw the Marantz CD60 on sale (scratch & dent). Me Knowing very little about what makes a good CD player & value I call the retailers "expert advisor" He tells me there all good units & the THD is good in all of them & I wouldn't notice that, but big difference I would notice is the S/N ratio and comparing the Marantz CD 60 to Marantz 6007 "the S/N is much better so it's well worth it the extra money". OK I start looking at those numbers & end up confused as per the expert the higher the S/N the better the unit will sound. For some reason the "expert" mentioned nothing about the DAC's in them.
Marantz 6007 s/n 110-$800
Marantz CD60 118- $800
Nad 110- $400
Pro-ject DS3 105- $999
Project S3 120- $550
So I call back "expert" and ask if the S/N ratio is the thing in audible difference than how come the Pro-ject S3 has a much better S/N than there DS3 which costs almost double ? His answer was "well that's just how they do it" I asked "do what" He answers "there's a lot that goes into this & I'm not sure but don't worry there all really good sounding players" Wow, not the response I was expecting.
I know THD & S/N numbers aren't snake oil but when you have a giant retailer probably largest seller of audio gear online not knowing what the heck He's talking about your going to get a lot of people spending a lot more money with no audible benefit.
So us (most of us) consumers think more money gets you a better product maybe but better sounding maybe not.
Now I'm shopping for some RCA cables to hook up CD player and budgeted 500 bucks I think they will really make that CD player sing but 1st I'll need to talk to the expert selling them.:rolleyes:
Are you connecting the analogue output of the CD player to an amp, or the digital output to a DAC? If the latter, than all the CD players will sound identical.

Even if using the analogue output - you are very unlikely to be able to hear any difference. As ever, choose based on price, features, quality, after sales support etc. Don't worry too much about audio performance. They will be pretty much equally good.
 
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LouB

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Are you connecting the analogue output of the CD player to an amp, or the digital output to a DAC? If the latter, than all the CD players will sound identical.

Even if using the analogue output - you are very unlikely to be able to hear any difference. As ever, choose based on price, features, quality, after sales support etc. Don't worry too much about audio performance. They will be pretty much equally good.
Thanks & yeah, pretty much what I ended up figuring out. My post was just to show what type of BS from a supposed "expert" who sell thousands of these things every year & have no clue as to what there selling or even an tiny bit of knowledge on what makes them work. Pretty pathetic IMO He's pedaling "snake oil" type crap & doesn't even know it.
It'll be CD to amp, going with the Marantz 6007 for features, DAC, build quality & it looks cool !
Head says get a 350 buck Yamaha pretty much same spec. heart says Marantz, am I guilty of drinking the oil ? ;)
 

antcollinet

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Thanks & yeah, pretty much what I ended up figuring out. My post was just to show what type of BS from a supposed "expert" who sell thousands of these things every year & have no clue as to what there selling or even an tiny bit of knowledge on what makes them work. Pretty pathetic IMO He's pedaling "snake oil" type crap & doesn't even know it.
It'll be CD to amp, going with the Marantz 6007 for features, DAC, build quality & it looks cool !
Head says get a 350 buck Yamaha pretty much same spec. heart says Marantz, am I guilty of drinking the oil ? ;)
You are buying with your eyes open about why. If you think it looks cool and that is worth the extra to you, then no - you are not drinking the oil. It's not stupid money in any case.
 

MarkS

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It'll be CD to amp, going with the Marantz 6007 for features, DAC, build quality & it looks cool !
Head says get a 350 buck Yamaha pretty much same spec. heart says Marantz, am I guilty of drinking the oil ? ;)
If you're buying for features and cool looks, no. If you're buying for "build quality", maybe; how do you the Marantz has better "build quality"? If you're buying for DAC specs, yes.

Sadly, here at ASR, specsmanship (which I regard as a form of snake oil) is pushed pretty relentlessly. Everybody recommends better specs, whether they can hear the difference (almost never) or not (almost always).
 

mhardy6647

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If you're buying for features and cool looks, no. If you're buying for "build quality", maybe; how do you the Marantz has better "build quality"? If you're buying for DAC specs, yes.

Sadly, here at ASR, specsmanship (which I regard as a form of snake oil) is pushed pretty relentlessly. Everybody recommends better specs, whether they can hear the difference (almost never) or not (almost always).
I first read this as spacemanship...
 

Geert

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You readed this?

So according to Alpha Audio they have proven cables can sound differently because they measured differences up to 0,5dB. Questions:
  1. Where is the 0,5dB difference? I only see a max if 0,2dB (when comparing cables on the same amp and speakers), a normal value that can be explained by differences in cable capacity and induction
  2. They only compare special cables, there's no standard cable being used as a reference
  3. How does a 0,2 or even 0,5dB difference explain typical audiophile observations like darker background, lower noise floor, more depth, better separation of instruments and so on?
 
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kongwee

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I use at tone generator, 7500hz, 70db at iMax max volume. -0.5dBv translate to 65db SPL using my phone.
 
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Adi777

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So according to Alpha Audio they have proven cables can sound differently because they measured differences up to 0,5dB. Questions:
  1. Where is the 0,5dB difference? I only see a max if 0,2dB (when comparing cables on the same amp and speakers), a normal value that can be explained by differences in cable capacity and induction
  2. They only compare special cables, there's no standard cable being used as a reference
  3. How does a 0,2 or even 0,5dB difference explain typical audiophile observations like darker background, lower noise floor, more depth, better separation of instruments and so on?
So, the cables may have differences on paper and in measurements, but they will be so small that there is no chance to hear them?
 

Mart68

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So, the cables may have differences on paper and in measurements, but they will be so small that there is no chance to hear them?
my understanding is that those level differences may still be audible which is why its important to match to 0.1dB in controlled listening tests.

But most talk about the sound of cables is bollocks.

Recently swapped some cables as those I was using have thuddy bass. I've had them 20 years and always hear the same thing when I deploy them. In my mind? Probably.
but that makes no difference to what I perceive. I can't decide to unhear it. It's just the way it works unfortunately.
 

antcollinet

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my understanding is that those level differences may still be audible which is why its important to match to 0.1dB in controlled listening tests.

But most talk about the sound of cables is bollocks.

Recently swapped some cables as those I was using have thuddy bass. I've had them 20 years and always hear the same thing when I deploy them. In my mind? Probably.
but that makes no difference to what I perceive. I can't decide to unhear it. It's just the way it works unfortunately.
These are not level diffferences though - they are FR variations. According to our Thresholds of audibility post here, +/-0.5dB (1dB top to bottom) is inaudible.
 

Geert

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So, the cables may have differences on paper and in measurements, but they will be so small that there is no chance to hear them?

In practise the differences are smaller than Alpha Audio suggest. The 0,5dB they speak of is the maximum difference between different cables with different speakers. That's of no meaning to customers evaluating different cables in their HiFi system, with the same amp and same speakers. There the max difference is about 0,3dB at 10kHz, and that's not a new discovery. It's really not in 'veils being lifted' territory.
 
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Mart68

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These are not level diffferences though - they are FR variations. According to our Thresholds of audibility post here, +/-0.5dB (1dB top to bottom) is inaudible.
Thanks that makes sense now. Although am I right that a 2dB variation in FR would be audible if it extended across a large enough bandwidth?
 

Geert

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I use at tone generator, 7500hz, 70db at iMax max volume. -0.5dBv translate to 65db SPL using my phone.

You know that for a 3dB rise in SPL you need to double the power? That should tell you you're on the wrong track.
 

antcollinet

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Thanks that makes sense now. Although am I right that a 2dB variation in FR would be audible if it extended across a large enough bandwidth?
Can be for some people but not necessarily for all. However the linked article isn't showing 2dB - it is 0.2dB
 

Geert

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These are not level diffferences though - they are FR variations. According to our Thresholds of audibility post here, +/-0.5dB (1dB top to bottom) is inaudible.
1dB is the threshold for absolute differences in level. When comparing the sound of cables it's not about absolute level, it's about relatively narrow band deviations in the audio spectrum (like an eq effect). For this the threshold is more like 0,2dB, that's also often been discussed here. 0,2dB is the ideal scenario, in practice a lot of people won't notice it.
 
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