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Extreme Snake Oil

You folks keep putting words into my posts.... my point is not based on audiophilia, but just on listening to real live music.

"Before you can claim a recording sounds live:...

But that's exactly my point.. they can not sound live...

Look-

I'm playing a Nitsch DAC right into a DIY clone of a FW XA25... into a pair of Fostex full range speakers in their ported speakers.

Playing 24/96 off Tidal HiFi, Willy Nelson, small band music, and it sounds extremely good... In my small home office room. It's dynamic, I can hear the sonority of the guitar, how the bass is being picked/slapped, the harmonica, Willy's nasal voice, the layering of the instruments front to back... it's an extremely enjoyable performance.

Peaks are likely 75 db... measured with my Android phone, about four feet in front of the speakers...

In my main system I run Pass Aleph 2s and bridged FW F4s for about 200 wpc of class A... yet, yet...

It's not that you can't enjoy music with a good system.. it's just the acoustic power of instruments is really big... and most audio recordings simply can not capture nor reproduce them. My point is that when I close my eyes I can tell if it's live... or Memorex... I've never run into a system that could play a recording that sounded... live.

Oh.. 110db... yikes.

My neighbor has a baby grand in her living room....

Gotta go... Whiskey River is coming on... fun song! I gotta sing along with Willy on that one... ;-D

Whiskey River Don't Run Dry...
When you close your eyes, you already know that Willie Nelson and his band are not in your living room. How can you be sure of anything?

The article linked below measured acoustic sound power using a spherical array of 32 microphones in an anechoic chamber, with professional musicians playing a large selection of orchestral instruments.


Their definition of "sound power", stated a bit simplistically, was the average sound pressure across those 32 microphones, normalized to 1 meter distance from an instrument centered as well as possible within the sphere. They asked each performer to play two samples of each semitone in the range of the instrument, with one sample as loudly as the performer could produce with a musically useful tone, and the other as softly as musically possible. They called it Lw, with units in dB.

The point is that acoustic power and loudness are the same thing, as long as the loudness is integrated non-directionally. This is the issue with loudspeakers--conventional designs can't produce the same sphere of sound in an anechoic chamber. But in an acoustically reflective space, like our listening rooms, the reflections will fill up the space outside the beam. If a recording has a recorded room ambience that is similar to what our brains expect in the room the eyes are seeing, the illusion of live sound can absolutely be sustained, if the listener is capable of the willing suspension of disbelief while sitting there looking at some loudspeakers.

What won't be possible is getting the same directional cues that live performers might produce in any given space, but that doesn't mean the directional cues that are presented won't be sufficiently realistic. It's not an easy experiment to conduct. Maybe my willing suspension of disbelief differs from your own.

There were some basic trends the authors observed--wind instruments get louder as they get higher while string instruments not so much, some instruments were capable of much greater dynamic range than others (which they defined technically as the difference in sound power, in dB, between the soft and loud notes, averaged across musically relevant pitches).

I note for personal interest that the tuba measured at 122 dB for the loudest and 71 dB for the softest, for 51 dB of dynamic range. It was the loudest of the instruments they measured :) I doubt that range has ever been issued on a recording, and no sound system on earth can make up for that lack. The clarinet, with the greatest dynamic range of the instruments they measured, ranged from 53 to 110 dB. For classical instruments (which predate the tuba), they also measured them normalized to Beethoven symphonies, and the range was much less, but still over 30 dB for clarinets.

Edit: I just dug into the supporting materials, and discovered that the tuba used was a B&S 3100 F tuba. I happen to have one sitting in my living room. These are orchestral F tubas, large for F tubas, but dwarfed by any orchestra-sized contrabass tuba in B-flat or C. (3100 F tuba on the left, Hirsbrunner HBS193 B-flat orchestral 'kaiser" contrabass tuba on the right. The Hirsbrunner is louder, but not by much. It is deeper in tone, assuredly.)

Hbs193-3099.JPG

(End of edit.)

I also note that standing with one's head right in the bell of a tuba, while a professional performer is playing as loudly as possible, will be...uncomfortable. But tubas in orchestras point up, not directly at the audience, and no audience member is going to be closer than 30 or 40 feet. Tubas in marching bands point forward, but they mostly play outdoors from a substantial distance.

And for my own personal calibration, they measured an Lw of 108 dB for timpani, and I have measured exactly that 108 dB SPL (unweighted) sitting a meter in front of the timpani when playing loudly in an acoustically damped rehearsal space. (I was collecting data to support a request for a plexiglass shield.)

I don't know to what extent we are actually disagreeing, but it gave me an excuse to dig up this paper :)

Rick "who has that copy of Shotgun Willie on vinyl, bought back in the day" Denney
 
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I don't think we're disagreeing at all.

(BTW, at live performances, I also do close my eyes... not, not for sleeping, just to learn the hearing cues.... Of course, if I got stuck with Phillip Glass, I might really fall asleep ).

(We should compare our Willie Nelson collections - and I'd love to hear him live in a small venue, but he needs the money so.. fat chance of that ever happening).

One of the sad things about the DVD-A format, and the old Quadraphonic formats was that the engineers squandered the possibilities of engineering true surround performances... instead they decided to do "music in the round" gimmicks.

I bought one of them Nitsch Syn surround synthesizers... I've been thinking of putting it up with a pair of small speakers in the back...

Somehow, though, I think we should make a different thread.

And yes, I don't care for snake oil.. Before firing up the audio, I find that cleaning up my ears with triple organic, extra virgin, first press, Spanish manzanilla oil gives those DG recordings a more nuanced layering... it makes the music slide easily into my ears. As an added bonus, you can make a killer dinner salad with it.
 
The last time I heard Willie live was in Luchenbach (yes, that Luchenbach). The first was in Austin, maybe at the Armadillo World Headquarters. I wasn’t a particular fan of Willie Nelson, but I lived in a dorm at Texas A&M in the late 70’s, so that genre of music was part of the background of my life.

Rick “nobody in the dorm wanted to hear my prog rock or classical” Denney
 
If you want a taste of extreme snake, there is absolutely no one on this planet past, now or future can match the level of this man here:

 
That headphone honest tabloid website has an article:

"15 Most Underrated Audiophile YouTubers That Actually Give Better Advice Than Channels 10x Their Size"

I nearly threw up.
 
Snake oil
 
A dealer I know offers a burn-in service for analogue cables, especially speaker cables, with the "Proburn Cable Burn-in Accelerator from Blue Horizon" (patent pending). Comes with a printed certificate too.

They claim putting music through the cables is electrically insufficient to condition the cables properly. Unpleasant skin effects will keep ruining my sound. And I will miss out in purity of the conductor and quality of the isolation.

The fix is just 20 € and takes 24-48h. Do it?
 
A dealer I know offers a burn-in service for analogue cables, especially speaker cables, with the "Proburn Cable Burn-in Accelerator from Blue Horizon" (patent pending). Comes with a printed certificate too.

They claim putting music through the cables is electrically insufficient to condition the cables properly. Unpleasant skin effects will keep ruining my sound. And I will miss out in purity of the conductor and quality of the isolation.

The fix is just 20 € and takes 24-48h. Do it?
It’s your money, spend it how you want.
 
Theodore Walton Denney the third, CEO of Synergistic "Research", has posted a ... something on "positive feedback" about how cables may not have mattered in the past, but now, with all the terrible, horrible, no good 5G and stuff they are really, really important. Amusingly, he also claims that past double-blind tests regarding cables having audible effects are no longer valid because of this changed situation. Snake oil, of course, but I found it interesting that the cable people seem to have found a new argument for why they are not merely cranks, grifters or misled.
 
This is in response to Danny Ritchie's recent botch attempt to upgrade something that didn't need to be upgraded.

Am I allowed to create a master list of charlatans, snake oil salesmen and con artists for casual and unassuming consumers?

As a public service?

(Of course I am joking because I know ASR isn't about this, but if ASR were I am dead serious.)
 
Theodore Walton Denney the third, CEO of Synergistic "Research", has posted a ... something on "positive feedback" about how cables may not have mattered in the past, but now, with all the terrible, horrible, no good 5G and stuff they are really, really important. Amusingly, he also claims that past double-blind tests regarding cables having audible effects are no longer valid because of this changed situation. Snake oil, of course, but I found it interesting that the cable people seem to have found a new argument for why they are not merely cranks, grifters or misled.

He's a remarkably creative fraudster. In a twisted, sad way, it's kind of impressive.
 
Funny articles about the walls closing in on $$$$ cable salesmen on that site.

I could understand if someone wants different listening tests. It would then have to be discussed what scientifically makes sense and what not. "Assessing timbral accuracy over time" IMO is not a test but a huge distraction from achieving proper results.

But the best part is: if there is no difference between cables, it does not mean they don't exist. It just means the test can't show them. And furthermore, the equipment used is not good enough to bring them out. That's very convenient. You need snake guy approved (sold) equipment to make the snakeoil work.
 
Difference in cables may affect signals that are way above (in frequency) the ability of human hearing to discern. It's also possible that a cable with excessively high capacitance (C) could cause misbehavior in marginally stable amplifiers, and that could cause a sound that's different from that caused by a much lower C cable.
 
Funny articles about the walls closing in on $$$$ cable salesmen on that site.

I could understand if someone wants different listening tests. It would then have to be discussed what scientifically makes sense and what not. "Assessing timbral accuracy over time" IMO is not a test but a huge distraction from achieving proper results.

But the best part is: if there is no difference between cables, it does not mean they don't exist. It just means the test can't show them. And furthermore, the equipment used is not good enough to bring them out. That's very convenient. You need snake guy approved (sold) equipment to make the snakeoil work.

The magic happening the playback side with megabuck cables somehow also happened on the recording side where a 12-pack patch cables cost a whopping $2.
 
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