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Extreme Snake Oil

tony_ee said:
...Do you know what the Plasmatronic speaker is?

I've heard it, and I got to tell you it was the closest to a real performance I've ever heard...
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o_OHow did you come to that conclusion?:confused:
 
xanalog said:
o_OHow did you come to that conclusion?:confused:
Click to expand...

Until recently we had subscription seats at our local philharmonic hall in Costa Mesa ( Segerstrom Concert Hall and, before 2006, the Segerstrom Performing Arts Center ) so we'd see about 10 to 12 orchestral performances every year. Our seats were row L, Middle of the row. Offset one seat to the left of the conductor so we could see the hands of the concert pianist.

The Plasmatronics were being demo'd with a second generation analog master tape in a custom rig.. 15 IPS, big tape... with Quad electrostatics, with all custom electronics by the designers of the Plasmatronics -that's how they got the source tapes.. connections.

The recorded performances were Rimsky-Korsakov, Capriccio Espagnol. Prokofiev.. Lt. Kije, .. I think it was the CSO ( Chicago ), done years ago... Excellent recording... mike placement and production.

It was being played in a pretty large room, about 100 feet by 80 or so... and a high ceiling. Not loud, but at realistic levels.

Closing my eyes, I didn't hear the speakers or a stereo, I heard a performance. It was really eerie how close it was to the real thing.

Mind you, it was as impractical as you can imagine... who wants those helium tanks in your house... and the master tape and electronics were large and it looked like something out of Dr. Frankestein's lab. ( By itself, I wouldn't mind, but I think my wife thinks that the current three racks of components and all the speakers are enough...).

The sound, however, was... it was not a stereo, it was music. There was true depth and width to the soundstage. The instruments sounded true and the dynamics - pianissimo to crescendos- were true to what you'd hear with an orchestra in a big hall. The bass was also extremely real sounding, but that also due to the Quads and the room the system was being demonstrated.

..

As so just happens, I have those recording at home, in LP, CD and in high rez downloads. So, I'm very familiar with them... and that main stereo in my living room does an exceptionally good facsimile of those performances... but, it will never sound like that. It sounds like an extremely good stereo... almost close to being there... but, the Plasmatronics are practically massless... and my Maggies just can not keep up with that.

We've heard those performances live several times because they are beloved in the repertoire and sell tickets.. the St. Petersburg (Leningrad first time we heard them) and Moscow Philharmonic Orchestras were notably... perfect...
 
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tony_ee said:
Until recently we had subscription seats at our local philharmonic hall in Costa Mesa ( Segerstrom Concert Hall and, before 2006, the Segerstrom Performing Arts Center ) so we'd see about 10 to 12 orchestral performances every year. Our seats were row L, Middle of the row. Offset one seat to the left of the conductor so we could see the hands of the concert pianist.

The Plasmatronics were being demo'd with a second generation analog master tape in a custom rig.. 15 IPS, big tape... with Quad electrostatics, with all custom electronics by the designers of the Plasmatronics -that's how they got the source tapes.. connections.

The recorded performances were Rimsky-Korsakov, Capriccio Espagnol. Prokofiev.. Lt. Kije, .. I think it was the CSO ( Chicago ), done years ago... Excellent recording... mike placement and production.

It was being played in a pretty large room, about 100 feet by 80 or so... and a high ceiling. Not loud, but at realistic levels.

Closing my eyes, I didn't hear the speakers or a stereo, I heard a performance. It was really eerie how close it was to the real thing.

Mind you, it was as impractical as you can imagine... who wants those helium tanks in your house... and the master tape and electronics were large and it looked like something out of Dr. Frankestein's lab. ( By itself, I wouldn't mind, but I think my wife thinks that the current three racks of components and all the speakers are enough...).

The sound, however, was... it was not a stereo, it was music. There was true depth and width to the soundstage. The instruments sounded true and the dynamics - pianissimo to crescendos- were true to what you'd hear with an orchestra in a big hall. The bass was also extremely real sounding, but that also due to the Quads and the room the system was being demonstrated.

..

As so just happens, I have those recording at home, in LP, CD and in high rez downloads. So, I'm very familiar with them... and that main stereo in my living room does an exceptionally good facsimile of those performances... but, it will never sound like that. It sounds like an extremely good stereo... almost close to being there... but, the Plasmatronics are practically massless... and my Maggies just can not keep up with that.

We've heard those performances live several times because they are beloved in the repertoire and sell tickets.. the St. Petersburg (Leningrad first time we heard them) and Moscow Philharmonic Orchestras were notably... perfect...
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ah, so purely sighted, subjectivist reasons, the kind of thing that Audio Science Review routinely dismantles :)
 
RexrothPigeon said:
ah, so purely sighted, subjectivist reasons, the kind of thing that Audio Science Review routinely dismantles :)
Click to expand...

Hmm... so let me guess... you have never gone to a live performance of a large symphony orchestra yet you know how it's supposed to sound..

No, ASR is about measurements of playback devices... not about going to a concert hall. That's not what ASR does. It doesn't compare a system to a live performance. It never claims to do this because there are too many variables beyond the audio reproduction chain. I may disagree with Amir on many things, but on this one I can't ever recall Amir ever making the claim that a stereo will sound like the real thing.

So, pretty much... you have no clue. Do you actually believe that an audio reproduction system can reproduce the actual performance?

I've given you the details... why don't you call Tony and get a demo of the Plasmatronics? Until then, pass no judgement about which you know little about.
 
I urge you to go listen to real music.

I've been following, and lurking, on ASR a bit longer than you. I also have a background in electronic test equipment and (analog, digital and RF) equipment, and music, etc...

ASR is well known in many forums.. there have been tons of discussions over the years. Some, I've had in person, some on forums, observations.

Do not conflate measurements with a set of instruments as being able to reproduce the real thing. It is outside the scope of ASR. Just because an amplifier measures correctly, doesn't mean it can realistically reproduce a performance.

Let me ask you something else... have you ever done any recording? I did, back in my youth, from '79 to 84.
 
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Wonderful. Let me go check out the HP1980B...

I suggest you read #16 very carefully, then consider what I wrote:

Just because an amplifier measures correctly, doesn't mean it can realistically reproduce a performance.

See? Amir is not making the claim that good measurements equate with a realistic reproduction.

There is a higher level of performance here. One that anybody that has listened to a real performance... real instruments, understands. Audio equipment only presents a facsimile of the real sound. There are many limitations. Distortion, recording, listening rooms, etc...

My claim about the Plasmatronic system I heard was that it was the closest reproduction of a live symphony orchestra I have ever heard. And then I posted that I am quite familiar with the sound of live symphony orchestras and the music that the system was playing.

It has absolutely nothing about THD, or IM or impulse response, etc...
 
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tony_ee said:
Let me ask you something else... have you ever done any recording? I did, back in my youth, from '79 to 84.
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Ah, now it's 2026, 42-47 years after your youth. Your hearing has degraded significantly, which explains a lot here I think. But yes, I record and release music regularly, even though my (much younger than yours) ears are not what they used to be :)
 
Wonderful... but you see, even if my ears have degraded, it doesn't matter a bit... because they are the same ears I hear classical music and the Plasmatronics. The point is that my comparisons are time coherent, therefore the comparison is valid.

I also limit the peaks at 95 db.

BTW, I used to record chamber orchestras and bluegrass. Live performances. At natural levels. What do your record and release?

Again. though, I suggest you read post 6370 above and think about it before you start throwing mud around.
 
tony_ee said:
Wonderful. Let me go check out the HP1980B...

I suggest you read #16 very carefully, then consider what I wrote:

Just because an amplifier measures correctly, doesn't mean it can realistically reproduce a performance.

See? Amir is not making the claim that good measurements equate with a realistic reproduction.

There is a higher level of performance here. One that anybody that has listened to a real performance... real instruments, understands. Audio equipment only presents a facsimile of the real sound. There are many limitations. Distortion, recording, listening rooms, etc...

My claim about the Plasmatronic system I heard was that it was the closest reproduction of a live symphony orchestra I have ever heard. And then I posted that I am quite familiar with the sound of live symphony orchestras and the music that the system was playing.

It has absolutely nothing about THD, or IM or impulse response, etc...
Click to expand...
yes if an amp measures correctly it actually does mean it can reproduce the signals it receives in full , better than human hearing .
Reproduce a performance no reproduce a recording of the performance yes
 
tony_ee said:
the comparison is valid.
Click to expand...
for your ears, which tell us nothing about the speakers' actual performance.
but really, not even that, since our auditory memory is very, very short, and it's well established that sighted listening means our hearing is at the mercy of our vision and our biases & preconceptions, which means sighted listening reports simply can't be trusted. This site, unlike nearly all other fora where people discuss audio gear, is dedicated to measurable, verifiable, evidence-based review of audio equipment. After all, it's called "Audio Science Review." And since our measuring equipment and methods are now much more sensitive than even the most accurate human hearing, it's no wonder extraordinary subjective claims are not given any credence here at ASR.
 
Am I missing something here at ASR?
Sure, it’s a site majoring on measurement but even Amir usually listens to the gear and comments on it.
And isn’t hi fi supposed to be a fun hobby, not a life and death mission?
A little less hardline, black or white, chat would be nice.
 
That part is, I enjoy it too.
It’s the acrimonious debate on ASR that I find unpleasant.
 
egellings said:
Inheritance and large lottery winnings could do that.
Click to expand...
You mean, like this?

www.audiosciencereview.com

A Call For Humor!

There is no dark side of the moon , there is a far side . It’s in orbital resonance with earth’s its own rotation is exactly the same period as its orbit. So we only see one side . The other side is ofcourse sometimes also in the sunshine :)
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com

1775601185853.png
 
tony_ee said:
So, pretty much... you have no clue. Do you actually believe that an audio reproduction system can reproduce the actual performance?
Click to expand...

This kind of rhetoric isn't helpful. No one genuinely believes that, yet you use this truth (that speakers fall short of a live orchestra) as an argument for the veracity of your listening observations. This is illogical. There is no rational connection between the two statements.

Subjective opinions can be valuable. Some people have better hearing and/or a deeper well of experiences than others. All you have said in this respect is correct, but it doesn't negate the fact that all of your listening observations are inherently flawed.

You should have shared your observations: they may add value to some people. And everyone else should have taken them with a grain of salt.
 
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