Extreme Snake Oil

[im_gumby]

@im_gumby as @Holmz stated you won't hear a difference. The premise that these snake oils wires sound better is derived from wires that conduct about 1MHz and higher RF signals. For a lowly 20Hz to 20kHz audio signal there is no improvement. So it is a truth that is stretched way beyond reality/a half truth and then proposed as a fact.

Well that was my point.
There is some science to back up what they are doing.
Now is it snake oil? Yeah. Not because the science isn't real, or that there isn't a measurable difference.
Its just that the difference is well within the noise and can't be heard.

One of the better respected YT and Audio online mag did do a test of these higher end cables.
They did find a measurable difference. So the science is there. They did capture some of the reviewers describing the sound quality of the cables.
(They took notes on what they heard and while done independently... several of the reviewers had the same description in terms of sound. So while I probably couldn't do what they did... clearly they heard something.)

In terms of audio... some claim that they could hear a difference. Placebo effect? Sure. Could they pass an ABX test? I don't know.
But I have to wonder... better quality parts and shielding can change the output in terms of db. So if something is slightly louder... do you hear more things in the music?
That said... another YT guy who does sell high end components and snake oil components. (e.g MIT speaker cables that retail for 100K) he had his buddies do a blind test of high end cables against cheap wire. They could tell a difference but preferred the sound of the cheap wire. A bit of egg on his face, and he said that of course there were diminishing returns when you spend $$$ on components where you could have spent $$ instead and had the ~80% of the sound quality for a fraction of the price.

Personally, I own an Onix Alpha dongle.
Now I've used it with both a cheap USB-C cable that was rated for 480Mb/s and a USB-C cable that was rated for 40Gb/s.
The 40Gb/s sounded better when running it from my PC. Less of a difference when running the dongle dac from my iPhone.
Part of the difference is the amount of power across the USB-C connection and that the 40Gb/s has better shielding.
When I used a different cable that had a USB-A connection to a power source, and then the USB-C for data... using an external battery improved the sound.
Now there isn't any placebo effect here. Multiple people have experimented and had the same results. I did find that if I tried this w my laptop using an external battery no appreciable sound difference. Both were still better than the device getting power from the phone. Also, its known that the dongle is power hungry. It doesn't work w all phones and this is a known problem. So yes cables can make a difference. (One guy too a laptop brick as the input for power instead of an external battery. Said he loved the sound. I tried this w my macbook's brick. Again better than the iPhone, but I couldn't tell a difference from my laptop.)

Now back to speakers...
Of course YMMV depending on the cable, the speakers and the amp.
I guess my current set up isn't worthy.

And like someone earlier in the thread which said you should spend X on your speaker cables based on a percentage of your overall cost in components?
That's a joke.

 

[im_gumby]

Having a difference would make it more than just snake oil.
Most of them have no measurable difference.

Ok... yes and no.
Lets set aside the placebo effect.

Does the quality of the material or using different material impact the quality of the sound?
Yes, to a degree.

Is there an audible difference? It depends, but there can be, however when taken to extremes.. no sometimes you'll see a measurable difference but there is no discernible audio difference.

Now please don't read into what I'm saying other than that there is some science behind what they are doing.

@Doodski
Why did you create Litz braided cables?

 

[Holmz]

Ok... yes and no.
Lets set aside the placebo effect.

Does the quality of the material or using different material impact the quality of the sound?
Yes, to a degree.

Is there an audible difference? It depends, but there can be, however when taken to extremes.. no sometimes you'll see a measurable difference but there is no discernible audio difference.

Now please don't read into what I'm saying other than that there is some science behind what they are doing.

@Doodski
Why did you create Litz braided cables?

My point was that most of these thing have no measurements, no theories except for some hand waving about quantum stuff, and if one cannot hear, then they are obviously cloth eared.
The cotton cored ones at least have some basis in actual physics, so that is somewhat less than “extreme” snake oil (IMO).

 

[im_gumby]

My point was that most of these thing have no measurements, no theories except for some hand waving about quantum stuff, and if one cannot hear, then they are obviously cloth eared.
The cotton cored ones at least have some basis in actual physics, so that is somewhat less than “extreme” snake oil (IMO).

But that's it.
Your basic physics applies to this as well. However... I haven't seen any tests or anyone having done any sort of A/B testing with them.
So while you would call it snake oil... I wouldn't. I'd say that they were very expensive chasing a diminishing return for people who are willing to spend an insane amount of money for something where if any difference exists...its probably not audible.

I mean we're in agreement here.
But to me... the snake oils is one where they are making claims that are not based in reality.
And you'll hear the sales guy say something like... "Hey, I'm not a physicist or a scientist. I just know I heard a difference and the speakers w the cables sounded great.
I just trust the science.... "
Now that is snake oil.

 

[antcollinet]

using more expensive and better shielded speaker wire and still....

Not achieve any better sound quality than zip cord of the same cross sectional area.

 

[antcollinet]

Lets set aside the placebo effect.

You can't. It (perceptive bias) is going on all the time.

Does the quality of the material or using different material impact the quality of the sound?
Yes, to a degree.

No, it doesn't. There is only resistance, capacitance, and inductance. The latter two come from the mechanical construction (wire diameter and spacing - and by the way have no audible impact except in (perhaps) stupid cable designs or excessive lengths - where they detract from transparency)

The former (resistance) can be influenced by the material. Never enough to have an audible impact by the way - but even if it did resistance also changes with diameter and length. So using a more expensive material with marginally lower resistance will be audibly (and measurably) identical to copper with a marginally larger cross sectional area or marginally shorter length.

 

[im_gumby]

You can't. It (perceptive bias) is going on all the time.


No, it doesn't. There is only resistance, capacitance, and inductance. The latter two come from the mechanical construction (wire diameter and spacing - and by the way have no audible impact except in (perhaps) stupid cable designs or excessive lengths - where they detract from transparency)

The former (resistance) can be influenced by the material. Never enough to have an audible impact by the way - but even if it did resistance also changes with diameter and length. So using a more expensive material with marginally lower resistance will be audibly (and measurably) identical to copper with a marginally larger cross sectional area or marginally shorter length.

What do you consider 'excessive' lengths?

 

[antcollinet]

What do you consider 'excessive' lengths?

Depends on the cross sectional area and speaker impedance.

 

[im_gumby]

Depends on the cross sectional area and speaker impedance.

c'mon give me an example. something tangible.

 

[antcollinet]

c'mon give me an example. something tangible.

It is shown there in the table near the top of that page I linked.

See also

An explanation is further down on this page titled "What about Wires Longer Than 50 Feet?".

 

[Doodski]

@Doodski
Why did you create Litz braided cables?

I used Music Interface Technology (MIT) interlink cable which comes as litz wound. I simply stripped the wire ends, soldered them in a solder pot, assembled the RCA terminations and tested for operation. The 1800 cables that I assembled went to retail shelves in Canada.

 

[mhardy6647]

C'mon, everyone knows that there is a cable break in period.
Its when all of those neutrinos and positrons dissipate from the copper.
It takes longer for those silver clad copper cables since the silver interferes with the free flow of both neutrinos and positrons.

If you don't believe me... just put your cables on the floor and see how they attract the dust bunnies.
(Dems hungry critters and love dem positrons. )

Well, that could explain why the objectivist community fails to provide evidence for break-in, eh? I'm guessing the flux of neutrinos is kinda hard to measure...

One of the better respected YT and Audio online mag did do a test of these higher end cables.

'nuff said.

 

[rank]

For a project, I needed RCA plugs and 4mm speaker plugs that are definitely not magnetic
Apart from 2 old hollow bananas from my own collection from the 90s

1) Never had this kind of problem, what is it for?
Because at current prices we are going towards $1000 to equip an integrated.
With tubes of course.
2) OMG, well I also had old sockets, original WBT but I especially miss the Supershield and the Clearaudio Cinch, the first Oehlbach too to stay in Goethe's Vaterland (which I like).
Everyone has their own quirks!

 

[rank]

Out of academic curiosity -- how does one know that the "5" versions aren't lookalike knock-offs?

The assembly quality seems identical to me, I was lucky enough to have some in my hands and I was able to compare. There are even some that seem to me to be much lower than those at $5, although costing 30 times more, with screws or nuts (apparently used at random) not tightening the cable properly. And could eventually constitute a moderate risk of electrocution but you never know.
Of course I have not tested each model, but it is better than nothing.We are still talking about IEC sockets (for some) at more than $430! So if there is an improvement and therefore only on the assembly, let us remember Amir's tests, it had better be huge.

 

[rank]

As far as I'm concerned the prerequisite for a product being labeled as "snake-oil" is a claim about it having supernatural abilities.

An overly expensive product with no such claims is just jewelry.

Jewelry (with watches and haute couture) is just so that the wealthy can show that they can spend.
For hifi, a niche market, it doesn't mean anything to anyone, only waste, the wires being hidden behind the devices that have an interest in being as massive as possible.Otherwise their lightness could unbalance them.
The fact of offering more expensive for the same in proportions of 1 to more than 10,000 can possibly activate in the consumer the reflex of you get what you pay for.
Which can be cured by objectivism.
The goal of this site it seems to me.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

Here's another one to add to the list !
Its a wooden box that is connected in parallel with your passive loudspeakers.

Products : RSP-901EX｜ Spec

I saw this advertised on a second hand audio classified internet site and the seller exulted in the ability of this simple device to produce improvements.
It was purchased within a week of the ad being placed.
Seems there's always a market for second hand snake oil at the right price.

 

[Roland68]

Here's another one to add to the list !
Its a wooden box that is connected in parallel with your passive loudspeakers.

Products : RSP-901EX｜ Spec

I saw this advertised on a second hand audio classified internet site and the seller exulted in the ability of this simple device to produce improvements.
It was purchased within a week of the ad being placed.
Seems there's always a market for second hand snake oil at the right price.

Zobel links/impedance correction are not snake oil, but the prices they charge can be a rip-off.
However, it should fit the system if needed. Such universal parts are nonsense and coincidence if they work.

 

[Anthony LoFi]

Zobel links/impedance correction are not snake oil, but the prices they charge can be a rip-off.
However, it should fit the system if needed. Such universal parts are nonsense and coincidence if they work.

"Everything I write in this forum is not open to interpretation. I mean exactly what I write and nothing else, otherwise you would be able to read it directly and clearly. "

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

@im_gumby as @Holmz stated you won't hear a difference. The premise that these snake oils wires sound better is derived from wires that conduct about 1MHz and higher RF signals. For a lowly 20Hz to 20kHz audio signal there is no improvement. So it is a truth that is stretched way beyond reality/a half truth and then proposed as a fact.

I yawn at 1 MHz. Millimeter is where it's at.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

Zobel links/impedance correction are not snake oil, but the prices they charge can be a rip-off.
However, it should fit the system if needed. Such universal parts are nonsense and coincidence if they work.

I would not consider such things a 'correction'. Rather, one is superseding the design decision of the speaker's manufactures. Yes, it can change the sound. So can adding 5% mass to the woofer's diaphragm, or adjusting the passive crossover frequency.