Extreme Snake Oil

[Roland68]

I wonder where WBT manufactures its connectors (they haven't produced cables for 30 years), their site only shows one assembly location. For all other wiring manufacturers the answer is Asia. Some IEC connectors sold for over $100 can be found -without the label- at around 5 on AE...

The WBT products are made in Germany.
Get a "real" WBT plug and one from AE, the difference in workmanship is usually clear. The material is where the wheat is separated from the chaff.

I had WBT counterfeits in my hands back in the mid-90s.
And there are also always dubious dealers in Europe who sell WBT counterfeits on various platforms.
If you want something "real", then buy from a WBT dealer.

Just look at Furutech products.
I would estimate that 50-100 times more fakes are sold than originals, not just on AE or in Asia.

 

[Frank Dernie]

as per the Webster Dictionary

The Webster dictionary is the American version of English which is not always but sometimes is, actual English.
I always thought the Oxford English dictionary was definitive??

Then we have the weird idea of British English which I presume was something invented by a colonial to excuse his/her inability to speak or spell correctly

As far as I am concerned it is a bonkers idea since the countries in Britain have their own dialects and languages which makes a mockery of the very concept of "British" English IMO.
My wife is Scottish and speaks the doric dialect which does include english words (like US english) but lots of others not used in English at all as well as a powerfully difficult to understand accent!

GDR

 

[Muddywaters]

One moment, please...

“My system with the Stillpoints Ultra ESS rack somehow knows when to produce more bass depth with more resolution, texture and resonance at the right time. Yet another time, rein it in, all in proportion and with magical balance and empathy.”

Ugh!

Barf…

 

[rank]

The WBT products are made in Germany.
Get a "real" WBT plug and one from AE, the difference in workmanship is usually clear. The material is where the wheat is separated from the chaff.

I had WBT counterfeits in my hands back in the mid-90s.
And there are also always dubious dealers in Europe who sell WBT counterfeits on various platforms.
If you want something "real", then buy from a WBT dealer.

Just look at Furutech products.
I would estimate that 50-100 times more fakes are sold than originals, not just on AE or in Asia.

Possible, well we agree that these sockets are useless... We don't see a factory on their site, they must just assemble at home and maybe add plasma or other coating.
I had some WBT in my hands and I think copies of their first cinch, the real one. Well theirs is heavier but there is no room to solder the ground, you absolutely have to let it wander around inside, not very serious. I am even less of a fan of their recent productions where plastic (we discovered the carcinogenic side of Teflon) has advantageously replaced (? For them?) metals. All while their prices soared to exceed $100 per plug.
Here is the next gen.
Unfortunately several french, english brands have disappeared, which seemed to me better in terms of quality-price.
The Clearaudio cinch has better contact.

 

[mhardy6647]

speaking of snake oil in its purest, boldest state.
I had one of those acid flashback kind of memories this morning catalyzed by a discussion about the rather ad hoc layout of the well-known (and widely respected still) Mastering Labs crossovers designed and built for studio monitor applications using Altec Duplex coaxial loudspeakers. There was once a small boutique audio company called Blue Circle Audio. Besides some reasonably normal/ordinary audiophile products, they (he) made some... abnormal ones, too.
Their power conditioners were the stuff of legend.

PLC Thingee FX2 with X0e Power Conditioner - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system

www.theaudiobeat.com

A thought struck me this morning: I do hope they used neutral cure RTV and not the great regular flavor RTV (which contains acetic acid) to fill those things.

 

[Roland68]

Possible, well we agree that these sockets are useless... We don't see a factory on their site, they must just assemble at home and maybe add plasma or other coating.
I had some WBT in my hands and I think copies of their first cinch, the real one. Well theirs is heavier but there is no room to solder the ground, you absolutely have to let it wander around inside, not very serious. I am even less of a fan of their recent productions where plastic (we discovered the carcinogenic side of Teflon) has advantageously replaced (? For them?) metals. All while their prices soared to exceed $100 per plug.
Here is the next gen.
Unfortunately several french, english brands have disappeared, which seemed to me better in terms of quality-price.
The Clearaudio cinch has better contact.

There is no question that WBT is produced in Germany.
There are always factory tours, the last ones in November 2023 and at the beginning of December this year. Since I used to live in Essen, and even in Kettwig for a while, I also took a look.
You can also find enough pictures of it on the Internet. WBT-Industrie Elektromechanische Produkte GmbH

For cheap RCA plugs, I can recommend the Amphenol ACPR, around €2 at Thomann, or the clampable Dynavox high-end cinch plugs for €12-15 for 4 pieces.
The cheaper and significantly worse copies of the Amphenol plugs are definitely not worth it.

 

[BeeKay]

WBT are very clear on their website:

"Nicht nur in der Technik, auch bei der Produktion verpflichtet sich WBT der Nachhaltigkeit. Deshalb werden alle Produkte von WBT entwickelt – in eigenen Produktionsanlagen, in Essen, Deutschland, vollautomatisch produziert – und von hier aus in alle Welt exportiert."

“Not only in technology, but also in production, WBT is committed to sustainability. That is why all products are developed by WBT – produced in its own production facilities in Essen, Germany, fully automatically – and exported from here to all over the world.”

There is no leeway. Producing in any other country than very clearly stated would shatter their reputation and also could cause litigation.

WBT Germany: Das Unternehmen

Essen is like 30km from my place - I could check on that

 

[rank]

OK but so it's not snake oil right ?

 

[BeeKay]

Depends?
Given many can happily live forever with Amazon bog standard RCA connectors and speaker terminals - there is room for personal decisions.
At least they seem not to cheat like Hegel do who produce very cheap in China and pretend it’s expensive Norway?

 

[rank]

I don't see what Amazon and Hegel (?) have to do with it. And be careful not to denigrate recognized and established brands at all costs, the lawsuits are relatively ruinous.
MY SUBJECT IS WBT.
I am delighted that their assembly of plastic and different metals in varying proportions takes place in Germany with raw materials therefore coming only from this country and so you have formal proof of it.
And that for you it is the best of the best.
But given that hangers send the same current, we are in the original theme.

 

[Roland68]

I don't see what Amazon and Hegel (?) have to do with it. And be careful not to denigrate recognized and established brands at all costs, the lawsuits are relatively ruinous.
MY SUBJECT IS WBT.
I am delighted that their assembly of plastic and different metals in varying proportions takes place in Germany with raw materials therefore coming only from this country and so you have formal proof of it.
And that for you it is the best of the best.
But given that hangers send the same current, we are in the original theme.

It all depends on what you define as snake oil.
For some people, everything that is expensive or very expensive is automatically snake oil. Another German manufacturer was recently put in this category, even though it only advertises that it produces high-quality products in Germany and makes the most of what is technically possible. But as soon as it is very expensive, it seems to be snake oil.

Something else about WBT. For a project, I needed RCA plugs and 4mm speaker plugs that are definitely not magnetic, so they definitely do not have nickel plating. I ordered a total of over 100 different plugs from Europe and Asia, some of which claim not to be magnetic at all. I also tested some of them locally in specialist shops.
Just ridiculous, no matter whether it was €/$ 1 or €/$ 25 per plug, all of them, without exception, were magnetic.
Even plugs that were supposed to be made of pure copper were magnetic, so some kind of copper, nickel layer and a copper layer on top.
The biggest joke were the very expensive and well-made Viborg RCA plugs for €80 / 4 pieces. Supposedly completely non-magnetic, it made a loud "click" when I was more than 2 cm away with a small neodymium pot magnet. The entire plug housing was made of highly magnetic material. At a HiFi trade fair, someone from the manufacturer confirmed to me that the plug was "real" and not a fake, no comment on the material.

Apart from 2 old hollow bananas from my own collection from the 90s, WBT was the only manufacturer that really had non-magnetic plugs, and they even had gold plating.
Some things just have their price.

 

[Roland68]

Depends?
Given many can happily live forever with Amazon bog standard RCA connectors and speaker terminals - there is room for personal decisions.
At least they seem not to cheat like Hegel do who produce very cheap in China and pretend it’s expensive Norway?

I don't see what Amazon and Hegel (?) have to do with it. And be careful not to denigrate recognized and established brands at all costs, the lawsuits are relatively ruinous.

Hegel outsourced production to China a few years ago, that's no secret and no disparagement. They wrote somewhere that high-end audio electronics are developed in Norway.
Unfortunately, they are not the only manufacturers to have done that. But these manufacturers are also to blame if a certain, and certainly unwanted, technology transfer takes place.

However, it must also be said that China or Asia does not automatically mean cheap production. Products of the highest quality are manufactured there. It is not always just the costs that prompt a manufacturer to move production abroad. This often happens because of a lack of skilled employees or a lack of infrastructure.

 

[Killingbeans]

For some people, everything that is expensive or very expensive is automatically snake oil.

As far as I'm concerned the prerequisite for a product being labeled as "snake-oil" is a claim about it having supernatural abilities.

An overly expensive product with no such claims is just jewelry.

 

[im_gumby]

While there is no hard data (that I am aware of) to prove to the engineers among you that break-in in exists, I'm sure 99.9% of audiophiles have heard the benefits of the process and believe strongly in its importance."

C'mon, everyone knows that there is a cable break in period.
Its when all of those neutrinos and positrons dissipate from the copper.
It takes longer for those silver clad copper cables since the silver interferes with the free flow of both neutrinos and positrons.

If you don't believe me... just put your cables on the floor and see how they attract the dust bunnies.
(Dems hungry critters and love dem positrons. )

 

[im_gumby]

I have no words...

View attachment 415746
View attachment 415747

I saw one of the YT videos on this...

The theory is that the air is the best dielectric.
(BTW the 'tampon' cables are the ones where you have a thick cotton thread running thru the center to help give them spacing)

The sad thing... there really is some science behind this cable... however... please tell me that you can honestly hear a difference.

I mean I'll wager that you can test and show a difference... but any such difference would be in the noise and no where near an audible.
That said... over long runs... those copper weaves probably help. But again... in a blind ABX test... could you hear a difference?
How would you rig such a test?

But I have to ask... what cables are you using?

I just moved my speakers so now I have ~4' cables of 12AWG audioquest copper that is at least 10yrs old. (probably closer to 15yrs) and my speakers are an old pair of Vienna Accoustic's Haydn bookshelf speakers. So I seriously doubt spending $$$ on speaker cables would make a hill of beans to my system. Went to MicroCenter and got ~ $2.00 banana plugs (each). So new cables $16.00 plus tax

Note I am thinking of making a new pair of cables... using :

Braided 8 to 12 Gauge Audiophile Bi-Wre Speaker Wire

Buy Krux Audiophile 8 and 12 Gauge Straight or Bi-Wire Speaker Wire Sold by the Foot . Interlaced Braid Oxygen Free Copper Bulk Speaker Wire from KnuKonceptz.

www.knukonceptz.com

(12 gauge as a test. )
Or
Just buy cables from:

Speaker Cable at Blue Jeans Cable

10' cables are between $50-$60 depending on length and brand of speaker wire.
(locking bananas )

10' of Krux is going to end up being $70 a pair or more.

Now tell me if that's overkill for a pair of speaker cables?

 

[Doodski]

I saw one of the YT videos on this...

The theory is that the air is the best dielectric.
(BTW the 'tampon' cables are the ones where you have a thick cotton thread running thru the center to help give them spacing)

The sad thing... there really is some science behind this cable... however... please tell me that you can honestly hear a difference.

I mean I'll wager that you can test and show a difference... but any such difference would be in the noise and no where near an audible.
That said... over long runs... those copper weaves probably help. But again... in a blind ABX test... could you hear a difference?
How would you rig such a test?

But I have to ask... what cables are you using?

I just moved my speakers so now I have ~4' cables of 12AWG audioquest copper that is at least 10yrs old. (probably closer to 15yrs) and my speakers are an old pair of Vienna Accoustic's Haydn bookshelf speakers. So I seriously doubt spending $$$ on speaker cables would make a hill of beans to my system. Went to MicroCenter and got ~ $2.00 banana plugs (each). So new cables $16.00 plus tax

Note I am thinking of making a new pair of cables... using :

Braided 8 to 12 Gauge Audiophile Bi-Wre Speaker Wire

Buy Krux Audiophile 8 and 12 Gauge Straight or Bi-Wire Speaker Wire Sold by the Foot . Interlaced Braid Oxygen Free Copper Bulk Speaker Wire from KnuKonceptz.

www.knukonceptz.com

(12 gauge as a test. )
Or
Just buy cables from:

Speaker Cable at Blue Jeans Cable

10' cables are between $50-$60 depending on length and brand of speaker wire.
(locking bananas )

10' of Krux is going to end up being $70 a pair or more.

Now tell me if that's overkill for a pair of speaker cables?

I have assembled about 1800 RCA MIT litz wound interlinks and lotsa speaker wires and when the conductor(s) use multiple separately insulated strands it becomes very tedious to work with while soldering or crimping. So I don't look favorably at the Krux Interlaced Braid Speaker Wire or those inakustik (sic) wires and the other wires you linked us to. If me I would purchase 2 conductor 12G wire and be done with it. Blue Jeans will be good.

 

[Holmz]

….

I mean I'll wager that you can test and show a difference... but any such difference would be in the noise and no where near an audible.
That said... over long runs... those copper weaves probably help. But again... in a blind ABX test... could you hear a difference?
How would you rig such a test?

…

Having a difference would make it more than just snake oil.
Most of them have no measurable difference.

 

[im_gumby]

Hegel outsourced production to China a few years ago, that's no secret and no disparagement. They wrote somewhere that high-end audio electronics are developed in Norway.
Unfortunately, they are not the only manufacturers to have done that. But these manufacturers are also to blame if a certain, and certainly unwanted, technology transfer takes place.

However, it must also be said that China or Asia does not automatically mean cheap production. Products of the highest quality are manufactured there. It is not always just the costs that prompt a manufacturer to move production abroad. This often happens because of a lack of skilled employees or a lack of infrastructure.

IIRC and it may not be Hegel who said this... all of the components are produced in China so it didn't make sense to ship the components back to Norway to then build the product. (Amp, speaker, whatever) And there is truth to that.

The technology xfer is a known issue.
Its a question of how do you want to die? Your competitors may a competing product in China for a fraction of what it costs you and their product is almost as good as yours but since its cheaper... customers will buy theirs over yours. Or do you want to risk IP theft and face a smaller loss of revenue?

In terms of manufacturing quality... they've been improving over the years while other countries outsourced manufacturing.
If you think about it... one of the issues w manufacturing is dealing w the chemical waste products and potential environmental issues. Something China doesn't worry about ...

If you look at products... Fossi audio produces an amp V3 or rather several products in that series. They are cheap and ok products to a point.
They oversell the quality and capabilities. You can get X watts output but only if you buy a more expensive power brick than the one that they sell w the unit. (Pretty much doubling the price.) Many YT pundits/reviews sang its praises. Then one day, a YT reviewer talked about how he was burning in his speakers and ran the amp for over nite and when he returned the next morning... the amp was fried. Then some of the YT reviewers addressed this issue by saying that they never ran their amps for that long and they are still ok and are using them.

Or you can look at Eversolo. Now they make a decent product at its lower price point. But as they evolved the product line (A6 to A8 to A10) the products had more features, build quality was better, but then the prices jumped to a point where they were attempting to compete at a different class.

That said... in the portable IEM, Dongle DACs, DAPs ... China and Asia own the market. In terms of volume of products and quality. There are manufacturers of high end stuff made in the US and elsewhere but you're talking north of 1K for IEMs or headphones.

 

[Doodski]

@im_gumby as @Holmz stated you won't hear a difference. The premise that these snake oils wires sound better is derived from wires that conduct about 1MHz and higher RF signals. For a lowly 20Hz to 20kHz audio signal there is no improvement. So it is a truth that is stretched way beyond reality/a half truth and then proposed as a fact.

 

[im_gumby]

I have assembled about 1800 RCA MIT litz wound interlinks and lotsa speaker wires and when the conductor(s) use multiple separately insulated strands it becomes very tedious to work with while soldering or crimping. So I don't look favorably at the Krux Interlaced Braid Speaker Wire or those inakustik (sic) wires and the other wires you linked us to. If me I would purchase 2 conductor 12G wire and be done with it. Blue Jeans will be good.

Most of the DIY speaker wires tend to be 4 wire (2 pair) So its really just splitting into two sets of 2 wires making the connections. Not bad.
Since you're not doing the braiding yourself... Its just separating, and twisting the ends... not that bad.

I did see a British YT make his own silver wires from silver clad copper wires where he did his own windings including the use of plumbers tape for insulation.
There he used a vise and a drill to do the windings. Now that seemed like a lot of work. But he did it and he claimed that his wires competed w more expensive wires.. but..if you look at what he spent on the silver wires (I think he used real silver not silver clad... ) Even the DIY wires were expensive.

But I digress. My point was that I could make decent cables using more expensive and better shielded speaker wire and still spend less that what some of these 'audiophile' speaker cables cost. There is some truth in quality components, but again... to a point.