Explain to me what I'm hearing from 45W to 80W

[simplywyn]

I recently got a Q950 floorstander, and currently powering it with a Cambridge Audio CXA80, it sounds decent, with good bass, mids and highs. I decided to plug in my Denon 600ne since they are extremely efficient (and hopefully use my CXA80 elsewhere), however, at the same volume, the Q950's just didn't have that same sound.

With CXA80's, the speakers popped into existence, the sound felt like it was hitting me, bass felt boomy and the mid and highs, especially vocals felt into my face. With the Denon 600ne, the sound felt like they were coming from the speakers, the voicing was back, and I didn't feel they emmersive feeling.

Both speakers were playing at the same volume, in fact with 600ne, I can barely move the volume much before it was unbearable (possible clipping?), but with the CXA80's I can move the volume all the way up and it just sounded bigger and larger.

Can someone explain to me what's going on here? Considering the volume seems to be at the same level, CXA80 sounds far better.

Now I'm wondering if a 300-400W class D amp would make an even bigger difference to the speakers.

 

[Beave]

How did you determine that the volume levels were the same? By ear or by measurement?

Second most important question, did you set it up so that you can switch quickly back and forth between the two (by quickly I mean a second or two tops)?

Third most important question, did you set it up so that you don't know which one is playing (ie, blind testing)?

 

[simplywyn]

It was pretty obvious, with denon I have to keep the clause under 40% otherwise it was annoyingly loud, with the Cambridge, I can go all the way to 80% and it'll just get more wide and detailed

 

[Chrispy]

What does the percentage refer to? Not all volume scales are linear let alone comparable. Matching levels isn't particularly easy to setup let alone blind quick switching.....but key to such a comparison. Just gain/level differences most likely.

 

[Beave]

Exactly.

What simplywyn is likely discovering is simply that the the volume control knobs for the two amps track quite differently.

 

[simplywyn]

Is that it? The wattage has nothing to do with it?
How come I feel like the Cambridge audio creates better sound… dunno how to describe

 

[Beave]

Because you are comparing
1) without level matching
2) without quick switching
3) without blinding yourself to which amp is playing
4) remote possibility that something is wrong with one of the two amps or that one is reaching its limits

 

[simplywyn]

Well, the difference is pretty noticeable… I honestly don’t like this attitude of immediately thinking the person is at fault.

I just tested the two again, clear as night and day. Cxa 80 is much more in your face, where as the denon has no range

 

[Doodski]

Well, the difference is pretty noticeable… I honestly don’t like this attitude of immediately thinking the person is at fault.

Most peeps don't like being told they are imagining the difference.

I just tested the two again, clear as night and day. Cxa 80 is much more in your face, where as the denon has no range

What the commenters are saying is that the memory for hearing things lasts maybe a fraction of a second and maybe, maybe 1-2 seconds tops. Anything longer than that duration and the mind starts playing tricks on the listener.

I have about 24 years combined experience selling audio gear and repairing it as a techy and I can't tell the difference between amps without having a switchbox for instant switching between them and even then most of them sound the same as long as they are operating within their range of power output. Very very few amps actually sound different in a detectable way. If one of your amps has a different sound then there might be something causing that. It could be that the adjustments for bass and treble are changed, the surround sound options are engaged or there is something wrong with the amp.

 

[Beave]

There is no attitude of thinking the person is at fault. Everybody will hear differences between the two amps when they're neither level-matched, quick-switched, nor blinded. It's human nature.

Since you just tested again, how did you level match this time? How did you quick-switch? How did you blind yourself as to which amp is playing?

If you didn't do those things, then you have learned nothing from this thread - and *that* is something for which you would be at fault.

 

[Doodski]

Additionally. The volume controls have a variable resistance to them. They have what is called a taper. That taper will make one volume control have a different feel as compared to another with a different taper. It's just they way most of them work.

 

[valerianf]

Sell the Denon amplifier.
You do not like its sound and I am not surprised.
I need to go in a shop and listen to a Cambridge Audio.
Alas brick and mortar shops are disappearing.

For now i am using only Yamaha amps.

 

[simplywyn]

The difference is night and day, but I guess I’m just fooling myself…

The wattage plays nothing here? 400W amp vs a 15W amp makes no difference?

 

[Doodski]

The difference is night and day, but I guess I’m just fooling myself…

Save yourself some time and energy and either do a switchbox comparison of the amps or don't bother too much on comparisons that require several minutes to do the changeover.

The wattage plays nothing here? 400W amp vs a 15W amp makes no difference?

Of course a class D @ 400W@4R will make a difference for total sound output volume although at lower volume levels there won't be a noticeable difference in sound quality unless the amp is changing the sound from it's original sound.

 

[Doodski]

Sell the Denon amplifier.
You do not like its sound and I am not surprised.

You are being subjective and that is not helping the OP.

 

[Beave]

The difference is night and day, but I guess I’m just fooling myself…

The wattage plays nothing here? 400W amp vs a 15W amp makes no difference?

I can compare two of the same model amplifier, and if I don't level match them, the difference will be night and day.

We've led you to water. It's time to drink it.

 

[simplywyn]

So the entire amp review industry is a lie? If every amp sounded the same, why does this site exist? I’m completely confused now.

 

[Doodski]

So the entire amp review industry is a lie? If every amp sounded the same, why does this site exist? I’m completely confused now.

Well... that is the question of the century. You are right in asking it. Most amps do sound the same although when running difficult speaker loads then a person will need a high current amp and maybe more power too. That is when the bigger amps are required. This site exists to show off the better choices in audio gear and to also show off the rubbish that is out there too. There is gear that measures horribly and sells for exorbitant prices and has a reputation for excellence. There is gear that sells for a reasonable price and has the best specs imaginable period. Like the Benchmark gear.

The audio industry is rife of legends, urban rumours, fake science and subjectivism. That makes it difficult for the uninitiated and unknowing peeps to cut through the rubbish and get to the meat and potatoes.

 

[JohnYang1997]

The difference is night and day, but I guess I’m just fooling myself…

The wattage plays nothing here? 400W amp vs a 15W amp makes no difference?

Doing a controlled test is a foundation of setting up the perception.
Once the difference is confirmed we can then isolate each possibility.
Amplifiers can have different output impedance, different frequency response, different noise level, different distortion level, different power, different clipping behavior.
So a lot of things can potentially go wrong.
Without a relatively complete set of measurements, one cannot guarantee.
If you play loud enough different power of amplifiers will of course make a difference. If you are not playing loud enough, there can be zero difference if everything else is ok.

 

[simplywyn]

Well... that is the question of the century. You are right in asking it. Most amps do sound the same although when running difficult speaker loads then a person will need a high current amp and maybe more power too. That is when the bigger amps are required. This site exists to show off the better choices in audio gear and to also show off the rubbish that is out there too. There is gear that measures horribly and sells for exorbitant prices and has a reputation for excellence. There is gear that sells for a reasonable price and has the best specs imaginable period. Like the Benchmark gear.

The audio industry is rife of legends, urban rumours, fake science and subjectivism. That makes it difficult for the uninitiated and unknowing peeps to cut through the rubbish and get to the meat and potatoes.

I’ve been doing the back and forth several times, and I can hear a clear difference. I’m trying to see what is the reason.

I HIGHLY doubt it’s volume matching, as I’ve tried to do so several times and the results are completely consistent.

I noticed the same with my Sony receiver which does 170W per channel and the cxa80, I could see the difference physically - I could feel the air being moved from the hole…

Clearly delivering way more power down low… so what’s the reason? Volume matching? I don’t believe it.