Exciting news from Onkyo and Pioneer: TX-RZ70/ VSX-LX705, TX-RZ9/VSX-LX905 = Auro 3D + DLBC!

[dlaloum]

Thank you for this complete summary!

On my side I don't know if I have to go with a Denon 4700, a Yamaha a6a or wait on some new Denon or Pioneer... But if the new pioneer has Dirac + Auro that would be quite a combo

Indeed - and Flagship Onkyo's without Auro would be a bit disappointing!

 

[starfly]

No more news on this?

 

[dlaloum]

No more news on this?

Nix, nothing, nada, no rumours, no news....

 

[stevenswall]

I would dearly love to have an announcement on what the features and specs will be - but if they are smart, they will keep those close to their chest until as late as possible - to ensure nothing unexpected throws a spanner in the works!

This seems like the foolish behavior of every other company.

I wouldn't buy a Galaxy S22 if Apple simple said "yeah well use USBC, stop using our busted slow animations, and have fully interactive widgets."

I wouldn't buy a Monoprice HTP1 if Onkyo said "hey, we'll have something similar for a better price out soon and here's what we are building it to do."

 

[Ongii]

https://www.whathifi.com/news/onkyo...pe-under-the-ownership-of-sharp-in-the-autumn
I just found the above. Promising.

 

[delta76]

https://www.whathifi.com/news/onkyo...pe-under-the-ownership-of-sharp-in-the-autumn
I just found the above. Promising.

Feel like just a voltage/power plug changed from models that are already in the US.

 

[dlaloum]

Feel like just a voltage/power plug changed from models that are already in the US.

The Australian models are usually the same as the European ones, and have been here since Jan/Feb.... basically the same with 230V input.

 

[delta76]

The Australian models are usually the same as the European ones, and have been here since Jan/Feb.... basically the same with 230V input.

Well my point was that it is no new model, just EU-compatible version of existing models

 

[Krillin]

The competition
I must say the Denon avr-x6700h & avr-x8500ha check almost every box for me except two. First I don't know what DAC's I will get with the chip shortage. Second Denon uses Audyssey XT32, not a bad solution but I am satisfied with Dirac.

Onkyo has the possibility to lure me away with Dirac if competitive.

Why I'm wary of Onkyo (Constructive criticism)
The Onkyo TX-RZ50 when tested by Amirm left me unenthusiastic. The DAC suffered from jitter and the THD performance was significantly worse than the Denon. But what really concerned me was amplifier performance. THD issues aside the 4 ohm performance is unacceptable, especially when even 8-ohm speakers dip down to 4-ohms. Then throw nominally rated 4 to 6 ohm speakers into the mix with various crossover design shortcomings and it's a disaster.

I have seen enough used B&W tweeters with crumpled up tweeters to know that I would not trust my Accuton Cell loudspeakers on the Onkyo TX-RZ50. And the pre-out performance doesn't leave me enthralled. If the RZ70/RZ90 don't step it up you've lost me as a customer.

Fix this and I'm your customer

What I'm really looking forward to and hoping from Onkyo/Pioneer

• Dirac Live - Bass Management support. Hopefully with enough processing power to pull of 96khz internal processing instead of the usual 48khz with DSP.
• Dirac Live - Dirac Live Unison (Spatial Room), hopefully when released it will be compatible with existing Onkyo Dirac receivers.
• Good DAC/pre-out performance. Whether by using cheaper DAC's in a balanced configuration for greater noise resistance or a more premium chip performance should be a whole lot better. The $100 Topping D10 should not be annihilating you Onkyo. Especially not when you can order chips by the tens of thousands.
• Better amplifiers with solid 4 ohm performance and less heat.
• Preferably with Class D if possible, heat kills components and receivers rarely have enough heatsink. I find it hard to believe that a manufacturer like Hypex or Purifi would not jump at a chance to put their products in a product that sells by the tens of thousands. Perhaps a deal could be struck as a major manufacturer for some variant.
• As the RZ70/90 would be a more premium product I would like to see more polymer capacitors and high temp/grade aluminum electrolytics. I want to know my investment will last.

A good bonus
A built in 10 band EQ just for the headphones. Filter type, gain, q-factor, and bandwidth settings should be easy enough to implement with the on-screen GUI.

 

[dlaloum]

The competition
I must say the Denon avr-x6700h & avr-x8500ha check almost every box for me except two. First I don't know what DAC's I will get with the chip shortage. Second Denon uses Audyssey XT32, not a bad solution but I am satisfied with Dirac.

I prefer Dirac too after years of using XT32... - but it is unfair to compare the X6700 and X8500 to the RZ50 - the former are TOTL Flagship models costing substantially more, the latter is the upper end of the mid / mass market segment... Onkyo don't currently have a competitor to the 6700/8500 (that will be the RZ70/RZ90)

Why I'm wary of Onkyo (Constructive criticism)
The Onkyo TX-RZ50 when tested by Amirm left me unenthusiastic. The DAC suffered from jitter and the THD performance was significantly worse than the Denon. But what really concerned me was amplifier performance. THD issues aside the 4 ohm performance is unacceptable, especially when even 8-ohm speakers dip down to 4-ohms. Then throw nominally rated 4 to 6 ohm speakers into the mix with various crossover design shortcomings and it's a disaster.

The X3700 rated 97.5/97.4db Sinad (rounded to 98db on the chart) - note that this was with the earlier better chipset, it is expected to drop by between 3db and 6db or more with the later replacement chipset...

Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K Home Theater AV Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $1,199. Visually, if you have seen one AVR, you have seen the look of the AVR-X3700H: The input selector is plastic and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The RZ50 rated 98/96.9db SINAD (rounded to 97 db on the chart)

The above incorporate jitter and THD obviously...

Signal/Noise had them as
Denon 109/108db
Onkyo 105/104db
(again note that on the Denon this is with the early chipset... the later ones would be expected to have reduced S/N specs)

IF you look at the Jitter / Noise spectra on those two pages - Noise is slightly better on the Denon (showing the S/N results... keepin mind the later chips are expected to be worse in this specific area) - Toslink/Coax are much of a muchness

So in actual fact - with the no longer available AKM chipset fitted, the Denon X3700, was ahead by only circa 4db on noise

The 6500/6700/8500 models are all flagship models using higher spec chips.... and costing more than twice as much - but even then the gains in SINAD are not enormous (X8500 103db, X6700 100db...)

I have seen enough used B&W tweeters with crumpled up tweeters to know that I would not trust my Accuton Cell loudspeakers on the Onkyo TX-RZ50. And the pre-out performance doesn't leave me enthralled. If the RZ70/RZ90 don't step it up you've lost me as a customer.

Fix this and I'm your customer

What is it about the measured performance of the Onkyo that you believe would damage your speakers? (not obvious to me?)

What I'm really looking forward to and hoping from Onkyo/Pioneer

• Dirac Live - Bass Management support. Hopefully with enough processing power to pull of 96khz internal processing instead of the usual 48khz with DSP.
• Dirac Live - Dirac Live Unison (Spatial Room), hopefully when released it will be compatible with existing Onkyo Dirac receivers.
• Good DAC/pre-out performance. Whether by using cheaper DAC's in a balanced configuration for greater noise resistance or a more premium chip performance should be a whole lot better. The $100 Topping D10 should not be annihilating you Onkyo. Especially not when you can order chips by the tens of thousands.
• Better amplifiers with solid 4 ohm performance and less heat.
• Preferably with Class D if possible, heat kills components and receivers rarely have enough heatsink. I find it hard to believe that a manufacturer like Hypex or Purifi would not jump at a chance to put their products in a product that sells by the tens of thousands. Perhaps a deal could be struck as a major manufacturer for some variant.
• As the RZ70/90 would be a more premium product I would like to see more polymer capacitors and high temp/grade aluminum electrolytics. I want to know my investment will last.

A good bonus
A built in 10 band EQ just for the headphones. Filter type, gain, q-factor, and bandwidth settings should be easy enough to implement with the on-screen GUI.

I doubt we will get a retrofit of something like Dirac Unison to existing models - at a guess, it will take substantially more processing power, and ram

DAC's and Price... to be fair, a Topping D10, only has 2 channels... you would need at least 4 of the Topping D10's - and then you would need to add a processor/decoder, and a 9 Channel power amp....
A basic 7 channel power amp will alread set you back the price of the RZ50.... before you then add your 4 Topping D10's, and your processor. - so you would end up somewhere around double what it currently is in the market for... or close to where the 6700 and 8500 are!

So yes, I would love to see improved performance from the DAC's - but I expect to see that at a substantially higher pricepoint... (RZ90?)

ClassD - well the RZ50 uses the same chassis as the previous (non Dirac) Onkyo generation.... If the RZ70/90 follow the same trend, then they will have the Class D amplification that comes with that chassis.... (we don't know, but it seems likely!) - I am not expecting a Hypex/Purifi type deal, as that would raise the costs to a level where the competition would no longer be Denon, but more JBL / Trinnov.
BUT - All the indications are that there will be prepro versions - which you could then combine with an appropriate Hypex/Purifi or whatever amp floats your boat.

I think one has to keep in mind Onkyo's market sector... It walks a fine line between value and performance - the Midrange and TOTL models have traditionally provided massive value for money, and would duke it out with highly regarded luxury brands costing twice as much - but that also means they stick very closely to feature and functions that are mass market, and where great performance can be achieved leveraging that mass market to maintain value.

If they invest in software development, it is quite possible that they could deploy features such as headphone EQ... without impacting the value equation. Dirac Upgrades with new features on the other hand will require more CPU/DSP power and ram.

I too await the launch with great interest

 

[Krillin]

The Onkyo TX-RZ50 was only putting out 30-40 watts into a 4 ohm load. I have owned a much older Onkyo before that didn't even have the power supply to run Energy RC-70's, Pioneer BS-21's, or the equivalent Pioneer floorstanders at any volume properly. Like many manufacturer's at the time they misrepresented what ohms the amplifier could drive and at what wattage. I am very picky about receivers having sufficient wattage and a power supply to back it up. I understand that the upcoming models are higher up in the tier but my analysis is the same as Amirm's for the RZ50.

As for the comment about reliability you do know how clipping works right? When solid state clips it takes out tweeters and 30-40 watts is pathetic into a 4 ohm load. As far as I know only McIntosh has Power Guard so I'm not sure how the Onkyo RZ50 will protect my 4 ohm mains. I'm not aware of any other company that prevents clipping when the limits of an amplifier are reached other than McIntosh. Clipping can happen during dynamic peaks, especially in home theater. Which is why I made my comments about the R70/90 having a better amplifier section with 4 ohm loads.

The DAC's - The performance should really be better. It's their implementation not the dollar amount spent. I would rather see cheaper DAC's properly implemented than an improperly implemented premium DAC chip (such as an ES9028 PRO). If Topping were making the DAC section with the same chip it would be significantly better than what we saw in the TX-RZ50.

Did you really read this? Nobody was impressed

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Onkyo TX-RZ50 9.2 8K THX Certified AV Receiver. It was purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me for testing. It costs US $1,399. Looks like all AVR companies are trying to break the mold of just dual rotary controls to something...

www.audiosciencereview.com

P.S. - I am not a fanboy but neither am I a hater, I just follow the measurements. I want Onkyo to succeed and knock it out of the park but I will not blindly give them my loyalty. Too many manufacturer's have grown lazy.

 

[Rottmannash]

The Onkyo TX-RZ50 was only putting out 30-40 watts into a 4 ohm load. I have owned a much older Onkyo before that didn't even have the power supply to run Energy RC-70's, Pioneer BS-21's, or the equivalent Pioneer floorstanders at any volume properly. Like many manufacturer's at the time they misrepresented what ohms the amplifier could drive and at what wattage. I am very picky about receivers having sufficient wattage and a power supply to back it up. I understand that the upcoming models are higher up in the tier but my analysis is the same as Amirm's for the RZ50.

As for the comment about reliability you do know how clipping works right? When solid state clips it takes out tweeters and 30-40 watts is pathetic into a 4 ohm load. As far as I know only McIntosh has Power Guard so I'm not sure how the Onkyo RZ50 will protect my 4 ohm mains. I'm not aware of any other company that prevents clipping when the limits of an amplifier are reached other than McIntosh. Clipping can happen during dynamic peaks, especially in home theater. Which is why I made my comments about the R70/90 having a better amplifier section with 4 ohm loads.

The DAC's - The performance should really be better. It's their implementation not the dollar amount spent. I would rather see cheaper DAC's properly implemented than an improperly implemented premium DAC chip (such as an ES9028 PRO). If Topping were making the DAC section with the same chip it would be significantly better than what we saw in the TX-RZ50.

Did you really read this? Nobody was impressed

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Onkyo TX-RZ50 9.2 8K THX Certified AV Receiver. It was purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me for testing. It costs US $1,399. Looks like all AVR companies are trying to break the mold of just dual rotary controls to something...

www.audiosciencereview.com

P.S. - I am not a fanboy but neither am I a hater, I just follow the measurements. I want Onkyo to succeed and knock it out of the park but I will not blindly give them my loyalty. Too many manufacturer's have grown lazy.

Who actually runs all channels of a home theater with the onboard amps nowadays?? If one is going to spring for a modern AVR w/ DiracLive then I would assume one will also spring for external amps to take advantage of the AVR's potential. I consider the onboard amps throwaway items. I only us them for the Atmos speakers.

 

[Krillin]

Who actually runs all channels of a home theater with the onboard amps nowadays?? If one is going to spring for a modern AVR w/ DiracLive then I would assume one will also spring for external amps to take advantage of the AVR's potential. I consider the onboard amps throwaway items. I only us them for the Atmos speakers.

So that fact gives them a pass?

 

[dlaloum]

The Onkyo TX-RZ50 was only putting out 30-40 watts into a 4 ohm load. I have owned a much older Onkyo before that didn't even have the power supply to run Energy RC-70's, Pioneer BS-21's, or the equivalent Pioneer floorstanders at any volume properly. Like many manufacturer's at the time they misrepresented what ohms the amplifier could drive and at what wattage. I am very picky about receivers having sufficient wattage and a power supply to back it up. I understand that the upcoming models are higher up in the tier but my analysis is the same as Amirm's for the RZ50.

It was putting out 30-40W into a 4 ohm load only AFTER it had gone into Protection mode.

It first did 2 runs through successfully and Amir's graph shows around 170 or 180W into 4 ohm

Halfway through the 3rd run it self protected... the issue isn't raw performance, but an over-zealous nanny circuit

Having said that - I would not recommend these power amps for difficult loads... 5W continuous is around 93db @ 2 meters (with 2 speakers / stereo) - and speakers with a relatively low officiency of 86db/wm

I run my setup at more like 75db average level at the listening position - and I don't use the internal amps as they don't have the current capacity to cope with difficult speakers - which I have. - But the pre-out is excellent, and feeding a pair of amps matched to my speakers the results are excellent. (Better than my previous TOTL Onkyo 876 and Integra 70.4... two examples of the high powere Onkyo's of yesteryear.... both of which handled my current speakers OK... but not as well as a dedicated, appropriate amp)

Out in the real world, across threads on 5 different sites, covering at least hundreds of users of the Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra AVR's of the current family, I have seen no reports of actual real world situations where the AVR has gone into protection mode!

So yes - clearly the nanny circuit kicked in - and just as clearly, actual movies and music, don't trigger it in real life (or with such a rarity that it is unheard of).

And yes, I could hear it straining with my 3 ohm woofer crossover, and 1.6 ohm tweeter - but it didn't go into protection mode. It didn't sound great, so I plugged in the power amps, and the problem was solved. (I was never expecting these AVR's to be able to drive my speakers)

It does a perfectly good job running the much easier to drive, surrounds and heights - all pure 8ohm...

 

[Rottmannash]

So that fact gives them a pass?

For me it does-I know they can't offer the features the RZ50 possesses and also include huge transformers/caps that would allow for the power reserves you think it should. Also the added heat will be an issue with higher power amps and we know Onkyo is sensitive to heat frying their video processing chips, so good compromise at this price point. I wanted the features and decent pre-outs so it's perfect for my use-case.

 

[tjcinnamon]

The competition
I must say the Denon avr-x6700h & avr-x8500ha check almost every box for me except two. First I don't know what DAC's I will get with the chip shortage. Second Denon uses Audyssey XT32, not a bad solution but I am satisfied with Dirac.

Onkyo has the possibility to lure me away with Dirac if competitive.

Why I'm wary of Onkyo (Constructive criticism)
The Onkyo TX-RZ50 when tested by Amirm left me unenthusiastic. The DAC suffered from jitter and the THD performance was significantly worse than the Denon. But what really concerned me was amplifier performance. THD issues aside the 4 ohm performance is unacceptable, especially when even 8-ohm speakers dip down to 4-ohms. Then throw nominally rated 4 to 6 ohm speakers into the mix with various crossover design shortcomings and it's a disaster.

I have seen enough used B&W tweeters with crumpled up tweeters to know that I would not trust my Accuton Cell loudspeakers on the Onkyo TX-RZ50. And the pre-out performance doesn't leave me enthralled. If the RZ70/RZ90 don't step it up you've lost me as a customer.

Fix this and I'm your customer

What I'm really looking forward to and hoping from Onkyo/Pioneer

• Dirac Live - Bass Management support. Hopefully with enough processing power to pull of 96khz internal processing instead of the usual 48khz with DSP.
• Dirac Live - Dirac Live Unison (Spatial Room), hopefully when released it will be compatible with existing Onkyo Dirac receivers.
• Good DAC/pre-out performance. Whether by using cheaper DAC's in a balanced configuration for greater noise resistance or a more premium chip performance should be a whole lot better. The $100 Topping D10 should not be annihilating you Onkyo. Especially not when you can order chips by the tens of thousands.
• Better amplifiers with solid 4 ohm performance and less heat.
• Preferably with Class D if possible, heat kills components and receivers rarely have enough heatsink. I find it hard to believe that a manufacturer like Hypex or Purifi would not jump at a chance to put their products in a product that sells by the tens of thousands. Perhaps a deal could be struck as a major manufacturer for some variant.
• As the RZ70/90 would be a more premium product I would like to see more polymer capacitors and high temp/grade aluminum electrolytics. I want to know my investment will last.

A good bonus
A built in 10 band EQ just for the headphones. Filter type, gain, q-factor, and bandwidth settings should be easy enough to implement with the on-screen GUI.

I just moved tried Audyssey in 2015, went to Dirac in 2017, and back to Audyssey a few months ago. I forgot how much I loved Dynamic EQ. I can say, Dirac took a more attempts but eventually got a better stereo image than Audyssey. Audyssey has a much better bass result and surrounds. For home theater, for me, DEQ offers a much more visceral result.

The other thing is that Audyssey gave me a much more predicable result. I would take some measurements with Dirac and they would be fantastic and others were not great. It was not as consistent (for me). It felt like a black box. Take the same measurement twice but end up with different results (not EQ wise but the time domain and delays).

I have yet to try Audyssey MQX but it looks like it offers up more flexibility and customization. I plan on buying a license once some remodeling is done. I'm excited to be able to turn of the sub measurement and manually use MSOP for the bass result.

If Dirac offers a DEQ functionality, I'll welcome that. Also, when Unison comes out, I'm very curious about that. However, it will take the AVR's a while to catch up and Dirac a good 18 months to work out the bugs.

As far as Onkyo, relative to the Dirac AVR's, I think it's the most reliable out there. The Arcam, Rotel, NAD, Monoprice, JBL... all the boutique brands regularly had weird bugs. I think D&M and Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra typically have VERY solid firmwares/softwares. Their failures are more on the hardware side.

Onkyo should release a pure pre-out mode for their next offering. Anyways, I'm curious to hear what others think moving from Audyssey to Dirac OR vise-versa.

EDIT: I agree with some others have said, at least move the LCR to separate amps. The amps don't even have to be that great and it would be a massive improvement over almost all AVR's.

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

I just moved tried Audyssey in 2015, went to Dirac in 2017, and back to Audyssey a few months ago. I forgot how much I loved Dynamic EQ. I can say, Dirac took a more attempts but eventually got a better stereo image than Audyssey. Audyssey has a much better bass result and surrounds. For home theater, for me, DEQ offers a much more visceral result.

The other thing is that Audyssey gave me a much more predicable result. I would take some measurements with Dirac and they would be fantastic and others were not great. It was not as consistent (for me). It felt like a black box. Take the same measurement twice but end up with different results (not EQ wise but the time domain and delays).

I have yet to try Audyssey MQX but it looks like it offers up more flexibility and customization. I plan on buying a license once some remodeling is done. I'm excited to be able to turn of the sub measurement and manually use MSOP for the bass result.

If Dirac offers a DEQ functionality, I'll welcome that. Also, when Unison comes out, I'm very curious about that. However, it will take the AVR's a while to catch up and Dirac a good 18 months to work out the bugs.

As far as Onkyo, relative to the Dirac AVR's, I think it's the most reliable out there. The Arcam, Rotel, NAD, Monoprice, JBL... all the boutique brands regularly had weird bugs. I think D&M and Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra typically have VERY solid firmwares/softwares. Their failures are more on the hardware side.

Onkyo should release a pure pre-out mode for their next offering. Anyways, I'm curious to hear what others think moving from Audyssey to Dirac OR vise-versa.

EDIT: I agree with some others have said, at least move the LCR to separate amps. The amps don't even have to be that great and it would be a massive improvement over almost all AVR's.

Wow thanks for the detailed impressions... Did you just use the default target curves for both Audyssey and Dirac?

 

[Martin]

Who actually runs all channels of a home theater with the onboard amps nowadays??

A good guess would be 75-90% of AVR buyers. I have since I got into multichannel home theater in the late 1990's. That is why people buy AVR's and not AVP's.

Martin

 

[Vacceo]

I just moved tried Audyssey in 2015, went to Dirac in 2017, and back to Audyssey a few months ago. I forgot how much I loved Dynamic EQ. I can say, Dirac took a more attempts but eventually got a better stereo image than Audyssey. Audyssey has a much better bass result and surrounds. For home theater, for me, DEQ offers a much more visceral result.

The other thing is that Audyssey gave me a much more predicable result. I would take some measurements with Dirac and they would be fantastic and others were not great. It was not as consistent (for me). It felt like a black box. Take the same measurement twice but end up with different results (not EQ wise but the time domain and delays).

I have yet to try Audyssey MQX but it looks like it offers up more flexibility and customization. I plan on buying a license once some remodeling is done. I'm excited to be able to turn of the sub measurement and manually use MSOP for the bass result.

If Dirac offers a DEQ functionality, I'll welcome that. Also, when Unison comes out, I'm very curious about that. However, it will take the AVR's a while to catch up and Dirac a good 18 months to work out the bugs.

As far as Onkyo, relative to the Dirac AVR's, I think it's the most reliable out there. The Arcam, Rotel, NAD, Monoprice, JBL... all the boutique brands regularly had weird bugs. I think D&M and Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra typically have VERY solid firmwares/softwares. Their failures are more on the hardware side.

Onkyo should release a pure pre-out mode for their next offering. Anyways, I'm curious to hear what others think moving from Audyssey to Dirac OR vise-versa.

EDIT: I agree with some others have said, at least move the LCR to separate amps. The amps don't even have to be that great and it would be a massive improvement over almost all AVR's.

What versions of Dirac and Audyssey did you employ? I´m asking because Dirac Live Bass and Audysseyx Multeq X seem to be a world apart from their basic counterparts.

 

[delta76]

Who actually runs all channels of a home theater with the onboard amps nowadays?? If one is going to spring for a modern AVR w/ DiracLive then I would assume one will also spring for external amps to take advantage of the AVR's potential. I consider the onboard amps throwaway items. I only us them for the Atmos speakers.

I do. Granted I am poor and want the cheapest option. But when I pay for something I should get that, right?