Exciting news from Onkyo and Pioneer: TX-RZ70/ VSX-LX705, TX-RZ9/VSX-LX905 = Auro 3D + DLBC!

[ban25]

Haven't they before? just one line from Pio, at least, SC-LXxx models. Have no history of Onky tho.

That was before the acquisition by VOXX International.

 

[ryaneagon]

I'm wondering if there will be a RZ90 announcement. I was hoping the RZ70 would follow the specs of Pioneer new ELITE Flagship VSX LX805 11.4 8K AV Receiver vs Integra DRX-8.4, in regards XLR outputs and 1 XLR input. Also, having 4 subwoofer preouts (only 2 discrete) and 11x150 watts per channel. Personally, I'd rather pay the extra $200 for these features. I love that they are including Dirac Live Room Correction Full Bandwidth.

Personally, I would prefer an Onkyo because of both Auddessy and Dirac live, as I would take advantage of using dynamic eq and dynamic volume and being able to save user presets with either dirac or audyssey. Does anyone know if that can be done with the Pioneer, Onkyo Integra models? I know Denon and Marantz allow you to save presets.
I'm not familiar with Pioneer MCACC, I assume it's probably not as good as auddessy?

 

[greg1953]

Just found this on Google

Onkyo Previews New Flagship AV Receiver

Onkyo today announced plans to bring a new flagship 11.2-channel AV receiver to market this spring. Following on the heels of the Pioneer flagship AVR announced a couple weeks ago, the Onkyo TX-RZ70 was “developed from scratch” under a collaboration between Onkyo Japan and Premium Audio Company...

www.soundandvision.com

 

[ban25]

Just found this on Google

Onkyo Previews New Flagship AV Receiver

Onkyo today announced plans to bring a new flagship 11.2-channel AV receiver to market this spring. Following on the heels of the Pioneer flagship AVR announced a couple weeks ago, the Onkyo TX-RZ70 was “developed from scratch” under a collaboration between Onkyo Japan and Premium Audio Company...

www.soundandvision.com

And the third-shoe drops...save $200 over the Pioneer and $400 over the Integra if you don't need balanced pre-outs.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

And the third-shoe drops...save $200 over the Pioneer and $400 over the Integra if you don't need balanced pre-outs.

$200 difference with Pioneer doesn’t make sense at all. And it’s no where near Denon 3800 price! Onkyo at 2800 is hard to swallow, but I guess this is 2023 and inflation when you let corporations profit the most but tax the hell of the middle class folks.

 

[cdwillis]

$200 difference with Pioneer doesn’t make sense at all. And it’s no where near Denon 3800 price! Onkyo at 2800 is hard to swallow, but I guess this is 2023 and inflation when you let corporations profit the most but tax the hell of the middle class folks.

Strongly agree: the price-for-features comparison to the Denon AVR-X3800H is really poor here. Two channels of amplification (especially at or above the quality built into a multi-channel AVR) does not even remotely justify the price jump here. It's not even a justifiable price jump compared to the RZ-50, in my opinion.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Strongly agree: the price-for-features comparison to the Denon AVR-X3800H is really poor here. Two channels of amplification (especially at or above the quality built into a multi-channel AVR) does not even remotely justify the price jump here. It's not even a justifiable price jump compared to the RZ-50, in my opinion.

It all comes down to me and you my friend. If consumers react strongly to the new prices and don’t buy, like what happened to Denon 3800, halfway through the year we will see sales start to pour in. If manufacturers speculation is right, and market buys these like hot candies, then this is becoming the new norm for half decent AVRs’ prices.

 

[dlaloum]

I'm wondering if there will be a RZ90 announcement. I was hoping the RZ70 would follow the specs of Pioneer new ELITE Flagship VSX LX805 11.4 8K AV Receiver vs Integra DRX-8.4, in regards XLR outputs and 1 XLR input. Also, having 4 subwoofer preouts (only 2 discrete) and 11x150 watts per channel. Personally, I'd rather pay the extra $200 for these features. I love that they are including Dirac Live Room Correction Full Bandwidth.

Personally, I would prefer an Onkyo because of both Auddessy and Dirac live, as I would take advantage of using dynamic eq and dynamic volume and being able to save user presets with either dirac or audyssey. Does anyone know if that can be done with the Pioneer, Onkyo Integra models? I know Denon and Marantz allow you to save presets.
I'm not familiar with Pioneer MCACC, I assume it's probably not as good as auddessy?

The only AVR/AVP's with both Audyssey and Dirac are Denon and Marantz...

Onkyo stopped including Audyssey around 2014.... when I believe D&M secured and exclusive agreement with Audyssey.

Around the same time, Onkyo purchased Pioneer, and repackaged MCACC as AccuEQ on Onkyo and Integra AVR/AVP's.

So, no Dynamic EQ on PiOnkio gear....

Having said that - there are alternatives. If you use the Dolby Surround Mixer (as I do), you can set "Loudness" to on... and this has the same effect (roughly) as DEQ.... - it is tuned differently so there can be preferences as to which is better/worse. There is also the dolby equivalent to Audysseys Dynamic Volume - labelled as "late night" mode.

MCACC and AccuEQ are reasonably well regarded as basic RoomEQ systems, they adjust distances, levels, and do some frequency EQ.

Audyssey and Dirac go a step further in improving impulse behaviour - Dirac in particular, I have found to make a substantial difference to midrange intelligibility, clarity, imaging....

I previously ran an Audyssey based Integra, and Dirac is definitely superior to that. I did initially miss DEQ, but once I worked out the Dolby equivalent and switched to using DSU in all modes.... that issue disappeared! (although I have a gut feeling that DEQ was a touch better than Dolby Loudness.... but it could be my imagination)

 

[dlaloum]

And the third-shoe drops...save $200 over the Pioneer and $400 over the Integra if you don't need balanced pre-outs.

A couple of things...

The Pioneer and Integra have the same heatsinks in the internal photos... The Onkyo has different heatsinks.

Also the Onkyo is apparently rated 140W as opposed to the others being 150W.

I would be surprised to find a substantive difference - but there appears to be some difference here in the power amp stages....

 

[dlaloum]

$200 difference with Pioneer doesn’t make sense at all. And it’s no where near Denon 3800 price! Onkyo at 2800 is hard to swallow, but I guess this is 2023 and inflation when you let corporations profit the most but tax the hell of the middle class folks.

This is marketing and market segmentation.... the difference in price between the brands will most likely be different in Europe, Asia and Oceania....

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

This is marketing and market segmentation.... the difference in price between the brands will most likely be different in Europe, Asia and Oceania....

How do you justify 75% price increase over RZ50? Inflation is not that high! Even Denon didn’t have that much jump compared to these guys. 3800 was like 45% and I still think it was high and the sales support that fact since they offered discounts.

 

[ban25]

How do you justify 75% price increase over RZ50? Inflation is not that high! Even Denon didn’t have that much jump compared to these guys. 3800 was like 45% and I still think it was high and the sales support that fact since they offered discounts.

Flagship/halo products are never a good value proposition, and value tends to diminish as you go up the product line. The RZ-50, at $1300, is a hell of a bargain! For those of us who are interested in DLBC and Roon Ready transport, the DRX 8.4/LX-805/RZ70 are a no brainer.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Flagship/halo products are never a good value proposition, and value tends to diminish as you go up the product line. The RZ-50, at $1300, is a hell of a bargain! For those of us who are interested in DLBC and Roon Ready transport, the DRX 8.4/LX-805/RZ70 are a no brainer.

It remains to be seen how many units they can sell to “those like you” then. My prediction is not too many.

 

[dlaloum]

How do you justify 75% price increase over RZ50? Inflation is not that high! Even Denon didn’t have that much jump compared to these guys. 3800 was like 45% and I still think it was high and the sales support that fact since they offered discounts.

At this stage I am guessing based on the look in the pictures and the outline of Specs we have been provided...

But it seems to me that the power amp stages are substantially different here - we appear to have a transformer that is two or 3 times the size of that in the RZ50 - and probably matching capacitors...

We have apparently robust massive heatsinks (with enough mass to them to be able to have some thermal inertia, and leverage at least some passive cooling before triggering the fans)

In amplification terms, the RZ50 amp circuits are adequate - but their power supply isn't - so they are likely to get into trouble with low impedance speakers (ie: when high current is required).

In pricing terms - the new AVR's are not that far off where the flagships of 2008 to 2014 used to be - and those were all high current capable AVR's with substantial transformers and capacitor reserves... and they were HEAVY (as these ones are).
Those classics of "yore" handled my difficult speakers just fine - the current Integra 3.4 doesn't (and I expect that the RZ50 probably wouldn't either!) - the RZ70/LX805/8.4 - appear to have the goods to be able to handle speakers that require high current.

What price a high current power amp? High current capable amps tend to be expensive... the US$1400 raise in price over the RZ50 seems reasonable if you need an amp of that kind.

And with DLBC capability (that too is worth something) - and the potential for future DL-ART upgrade... (I hope!) - and then there is the addition of Auro3D.

It certainly isn't cheap... and there are plenty of setups where the value option will be at the RZ50 or NR7100 level.
Right now I personally am using an Integra DRX 3.4 (I am not yet using all its 9 channels... but soon!)- and acknowledging it's achilles heel - the power amps, - have fitted it with a pair of very very muscular Crown external amps....

Will I rush out and buy an RZ70 now - no, not immediately - I want to see some measurements first, see how it handles difficult speakers (preferably 2 ohm loads!) - see how hot it runs... and I would very very much like to hear that DL-ART will be available for it.

Will I go down that path sometime in 2024.... that is reasonably likely I think - it would be nice to be able to simplify my home setup, and put the crowns back in storage (or perhaps sell them and recoup some of the upgrade costs!)

 

[dlaloum]

It remains to be seen how many units they can sell to “those like you” then. My prediction is not too many.

Hence why flagship products always sell in much more limited quantities!

Many of us will be waiting to see these measured on Amir's bench.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Hence why flagship products always sell in much more limited quantities!

Many of us will be waiting to see these measured on Amir's bench.

The problem with the price is not beefier power amp section. I bet the RZ90 comes close to this or even surpass this without power amps since it has all the XLR ports.

 

[ban25]

It remains to be seen how many units they can sell to “those like you” then. My prediction is not too many.

I actually think moving up-market is the only chance these AV component brands have to survive. The low-end is quickly becoming the domain of sound bars and cheap wireless speakers that end up in the landfill after a few years.

 

[Martin]

I'll limp along with my sick but still functioning SC-LX801 until the VSX-LX805/TX-RZ70 pair are selling for $2k or less refurbished, depending upon how they test. Who's going to send one to Amir?

There is always the VSX-LX505/TX-RZ50 both going for less than $1k refurbished if my current unit suddenly dies but I'd prefer something that meets advertised spec.

Martin

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

I actually think moving up-market is the only chance these AV component brands have to survive. The low-end is quickly becoming the domain of sound bars and cheap wireless speakers that end up in the landfill after a few years.

The sound bar people are those same demographic who bought those home theater in a box a decade or two ago with those tiny satellite speakers. After throwing out a couple in the trash, they will come back to the real world!

 

[caspian85]

At this stage I am guessing based on the look in the pictures and the outline of Specs we have been provided...

But it seems to me that the power amp stages are substantially different here - we appear to have a transformer that is two or 3 times the size of that in the RZ50 - and probably matching capacitors...

We have apparently robust massive heatsinks (with enough mass to them to be able to have some thermal inertia, and leverage at least some passive cooling before triggering the fans)

In amplification terms, the RZ50 amp circuits are adequate - but their power supply isn't - so they are likely to get into trouble with low impedance speakers (ie: when high current is required).

In pricing terms - the new AVR's are not that far off where the flagships of 2008 to 2014 used to be - and those were all high current capable AVR's with substantial transformers and capacitor reserves... and they were HEAVY (as these ones are).
Those classics of "yore" handled my difficult speakers just fine - the current Integra 3.4 doesn't (and I expect that the RZ50 probably wouldn't either!) - the RZ70/LX805/8.4 - appear to have the goods to be able to handle speakers that require high current.

What price a high current power amp? High current capable amps tend to be expensive... the US$1400 raise in price over the RZ50 seems reasonable if you need an amp of that kind.

And with DLBC capability (that too is worth something) - and the potential for future DL-ART upgrade... (I hope!) - and then there is the addition of Auro3D.

It certainly isn't cheap... and there are plenty of setups where the value option will be at the RZ50 or NR7100 level.
Right now I personally am using an Integra DRX 3.4 (I am not yet using all its 9 channels... but soon!)- and acknowledging it's achilles heel - the power amps, - have fitted it with a pair of very very muscular Crown external amps....

Will I rush out and buy an RZ70 now - no, not immediately - I want to see some measurements first, see how it handles difficult speakers (preferably 2 ohm loads!) - see how hot it runs... and I would very very much like to hear that DL-ART will be available for it.

Will I go down that path sometime in 2024.... that is reasonably likely I think - it would be nice to be able to simplify my home setup, and put the crowns back in storage (or perhaps sell them and recoup some of the upgrade costs!)

I’m a long term lurker and big fan of PiOnkyo - the RZ-70/LX805 seem the 2023 equivalents of the Denon 6500H and Marantz Cinema 40, certainly not the Denon x3800H. The Cinema 40, at $3500 has fewer amplified channels and less power. The Denon 6500H has a single 4K/120fps input and no Dirac etc.

Even if you compare the RZ-70 at $2800 with the Denon x4800H at $2500, you get much more bang for the buck with the RZ-70. Especially with the Dirac 20Hz - 20kHz license fee built in to the RZ-70, enabling it on the x4800H at $350 would get you to $2850 on the x4800H.

And as @dlaloum said the new PiOnkyo AVRs weigh in at close to 50 pounds each showing the size of the transformer and the quality of the power supply. Even the Denon x6500H is at about 35 pounds as is the Cinema 40. In the D&M range it’s the x8500H and the SR 8015 that have this kind of weight.