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Excess group delay and mismatched phase response

You can apply some EQ to make it a bit better
How? I think that even if I use DL option only instead of DLBC to only EQ the FR of each channel individually, then delays and speakers levels will be fixed in the receiver. I never used DL or DLBM.
 
How? I think that even if I use DL option only instead of DLBC to only EQ the FR of each channel individually, then delays and speakers levels will be fixed in the receiver. I never used DL or DLBM.
Just use peaking filters on your AVR based on your measurement to tame certain peaks (to be honest I am not familiar with your AVR but that might be possible)
 
Not it is not but thanks . With my ancient Rotel I could do that with more or less success. I'll see what is possible with DL only.
 
It's a bit too technical but step response swings should normally gradually fade out over time and since it's the integral of the impulse response, impulse average must be non-zero. This is not something Dirac would intentionally do and is most likely a bug. That could harm hardware in the long run, too. More info below:

@ppataki
Sirs,
I want to thank you for your comments here. I need those because Dirac must to be fixed for Arcam owners and I don't have all the knowledge you and others here have. @OCA if one day you have the time , the will,the chance or you are so bored that you want to take a look at Dirac it would be great!
 
@ppataki
Sirs,
I want to thank you for your comments here. I need those because Dirac must to be fixed for Arcam owners and I don't have all the knowledge you and others here have. @OCA if one day you have the time , the will,the chance or you are so bored that you want to take a look at Dirac it would be great!
You are welcome @RenPa
I hope it will get sorted eventually
 
See what I achieved by:
-13 mic positions deviated by less than10cm if it does;
-choosing an other calculated filter with the same house curves
Can you believe that?
1732118567221.png
 
See what I achieved by:
-13 mic positions deviated by less than10cm if it does;
-choosing an other calculated filter with the same house curves
Can you believe that?
View attachment 408176

How does it sound? I mean compared to the one you created manually (the Wavelet of which looks much better)
 
How does it sound? I mean compared to the one you created manually (the Wavelet of which looks much better)
SS&I is noticeably cleaner is the sense that instruments in music score are more present detached of each other, ( ce serait plus facile en français!) surrounds sounds are more present with movies and dialogue remains easy to hear.
 
Same strange behaviour here with DLBC and my 2.2 system.

Excess GD
1000028237.jpg

Spectrogram
1000028241.jpg


Without Dirac (raw response of subs and mains, time aligned):
1000028242.jpg

1000028243.jpg


Perhaps the GD is sacrificed for better amplitude consistency.
In any case I had reported to Dirac and they told me that they would submit everything to their dev team, but no answer so far.
 
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As I checked in the other threads I posted
The problem with DLBC seems to come from the incorrect alignment of the speaker and subwoofer.
There is no such problem in the part where only the subwoofer to which DLBC is applied is measured.
There is actually enough alignment in the crossover region in my case.
The apparent anomaly is the increase in GD.
But I suspect it is not a real bug, but more a voluntary compromise to have consistency of amplitude and alignment.
 
There is actually enough alignment in the crossover region in my case.
The apparent anomaly is the increase in GD.
But I suspect it is not a real bug, but more a voluntary compromise to have consistency of amplitude and alignment.
1732179054750.png

1732179136581.png

DLBM Sub only

1732179068756.png


1732179148674.png

DLBC Sub only

There was no difference between the sub.



1732179166572.png

DLBM (Sub+Speaker)

1732179185147.png

DLBC (Sub+Speaker)


But I suspect it is not a real bug, but more a voluntary compromise to have consistency of amplitude and alignment.
I respect your idea, but if so, is there any basis to back it up?
 
I can't understand what sub only means and why it differs from sub + main
When I saw the differing results between the Sub and Sub+Speaker configurations, I pointed out that there might be an issue with the alignment process.
While it's possible that DLBC made this choice intentionally depending on the room's characteristics, I was questioning it because I suspect a problem in the alignment process.
Upon further investigation, I discovered reports from other communities around 2021 describing similar behavior. Considering that this choice has been consistently made, it seems likely to be a systematic issue rather than a deliberate design decision.
Of course, as you mentioned, it might have been DLBC's intended behavior, but I found it difficult to justify this choice based on the observed results.
 
When I saw the differing results between the Sub and Sub+Speaker configurations, I pointed out that there might be an issue with the alignment process.
While it's possible that DLBC made this choice intentionally depending on the room's characteristics, I was questioning it because I suspect a problem in the alignment process.
Upon further investigation, I discovered reports from other communities around 2021 describing similar behavior. Considering that this choice has been consistently made, it seems likely to be a systematic issue rather than a deliberate design decision.
Of course, as you mentioned, it might have been DLBC's intended behavior, but I found it difficult to justify this choice based on the observed results.
I agree with your reasoning, I'm just asking what you're actually measuring where you indicate sub only in those graphs. I imagine that you simply make the mains not play and that the DLBC filter is always the same between sub only and sub + main measurements. But in this case the showed difference is not possible...
 
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When I saw the differing results between the Sub and Sub+Speaker configurations, I pointed out that there might be an issue with the alignment process.
While it's possible that DLBC made this choice intentionally depending on the room's characteristics, I was questioning it because I suspect a problem in the alignment process.
Upon further investigation, I discovered reports from other communities around 2021 describing similar behavior. Considering that this choice has been consistently made, it seems likely to be a systematic issue rather than a deliberate design decision.
Of course, as you mentioned, it might have been DLBC's intended behavior, but I found it difficult to justify this choice based on the observed results.
I agree - I cannot imagine how to justify a GD of 100ms, or even 50ms as shown in the above screenshot if you can significantly lower it by 'manual' integration
Either something is wrong with DLBC's algorithm or there is indeed a justification for such high GD values (that I cannot imagine but still)
 
I agree with your reasoning, I'm just asking what you're actually measuring where you indicate sub only in those graphs. I imagine that you simply make the mains not play and that the DLBC filter is always the same between sub only and sub + main measurements.
The measurements were not taken by me directly but were provided by another user upon request.
Sub only refers to the combined state of Sub1 and Sub2. After processing between the subs is completed, they are finally integrated with the main speakers.
As you mentioned, the filters for Sub-only measurements and Sub+Main in the DLBC state are identical. They should be, as this is not a filter issue. It seems to be caused by delay instead.
So, what I was suggesting is that I suspect there might be an alignment issue between the speaker and the subwoofer.

I agree - I cannot imagine how to justify a GD of 100ms, or even 50ms as shown in the above screenshot if you can significantly lower it by 'manual' integration
Either something is wrong with DLBC's algorithm or there is indeed a justification for such high GD values (that I cannot imagine but still)
In fact, most users in the Korean community where I am active do not use DLBC. Instead, they use DLBM and adjust it manually. They see this as a stepping stone toward eventually reaching Dirac ART...... =(

Of course, I believe that small errors in the millisecond range are possible.
As I mentioned earlier, in certain specific spaces, there might be unusually strong phase shifts that could cause DLBC to become confused and provide incorrect values. However, what I find difficult to understand is why it consistently provides incorrect values in such a manner.
It's not just a small ms error.... As you mentioned, I tried to reverse-engineer this, keeping Dirac's intentions in mind as much as possible. Even after virtualizing it with BRIR and listening to it countless times, I still couldn't understand the intended outcome.
 
The measurements were not taken by me directly but were provided by another user upon request.
Sub only refers to the combined state of Sub1 and Sub2. After processing between the subs is completed, they are finally integrated with the main speakers.
As you mentioned, the filters for Sub-only measurements and Sub+Main in the DLBC state are identical. They should be, as this is not a filter issue. It seems to be caused by delay instead.
So, what I was suggesting is that I suspect there might be an alignment issue between the speaker and the subwoofer.
If the filter is the same and the only difference is the mains active or not active, the difference showed in those graphs is not possible.
Either there is an error or there is some misunderstanding...
If I do the same thing the GD envelope that I get at low frequencies changes in some localized points at crossover freq, it does not change so macroscopically towards the low end (rightly).
 
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I agree - I cannot imagine how to justify a GD of 100ms, or even 50ms as shown in the above screenshot if you can significantly lower it by 'manual' integration
Either something is wrong with DLBC's algorithm or there is indeed a justification for such high GD values (that I cannot imagine but still)
Reading their documents and other online notions, there may be a logic, which is to minimize the Mean Squared Error over a large area, to the detriment of the GD (implied). Which if intended could mean it is the best psycho-acoustically solution.
But not for my ears honestly...
 
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Let's assume an arbitrary response. We divided it with an 80 Hz LR4 crossover.
When we look at those two separately, there is obviously no issue. Even when summed together, there is no problem.

1732182010932.png


Just Align sum them directly, it's normal.

1732182113425.png



Adding a 20ms delay to the sub


1732182144185.png


Adding a 20ms delay to the sub and reverse polarity.
I hope what I was trying to say has been clearly conveyed.

Of course this is not about "why?"
I tested my question with a virtual pure clean response, not a room response.
 
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