solderdude
Grand Contributor
Nope I don't. listening to music and fidelity are not necessarily equally important to all people.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Excellent Presentation on Headphone Measurements
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Nope I don't. listening to music and fidelity are not necessarily equally important to all people.
Yes. If we ignore the practicality and "social disturbance" issues of speakers, I've found two main aspects of headphone sound that can make headphones preferable to speakers:
- because of their technically-wrong representation of soundstage where most of the music is placed inside your head (central sounds almost always), vocalist-focused music can sound much more intimate, there's an experience of the vocalist "singing into you / singing directly to your soul or core" that is just not possible with speakers
- if you can hear headphone soundstage as being very wide at least laterally (like with some angled-cup open-backs like the HD800, iSine, KSC75, MySphere etc.), it could be far easier to get a sense of being completely enveloped by the music vs. what speakers can do because the latter depends enormously on the listening room and even then might require more than 2 speakers to get the same result (I tend to like this for some types of electronic music that create some 'other world' or 'ethereal space' type experiences).
JRS
Major Contributor
Agreed--both regarding the utility of such msmts and the typical absence thereof. The only exceptions I can think of are Vance Dickinson at Voice Coil who will push drivers hard, and Erin, who is including compression and distortion data in his newer driver reviews. Gives a number as to where the driver runs out of steam, either due to more than 2dB of compression or exceeding distortion limits. Very helpful when doing DIY.
I often get told by people that “I can’t hear the difference.“ I usually tell them that unless they have hearing damage they can probably hear the difference, the question is do they care about the difference?
it took two years of heavy headphone use and then one day it was like the lights came on…
I was never impressed by soundstage in headphones to the same degree as speakers. Not easy for me to be exited about. If the discussion was about Imaging capabilities I'd say it's easy for me pick up on, and it definitely varies between different headphones and adds to listening enjoyment.
Frankly I willingly sacrificed soundstage in my speaker setup, by placing them in a small isometric triangle. I'm probably not the first headphone fan that prefers this type of speaker placement. To convey soundstage speakers are rather placed far apart and parallel to the wall.
Basically I associate soundstage with increased of coloration and smearing due to room reflections. If seems weird for me to expect that from headphones, and it's looking past the strengths of headphones. Just my 2c. I'm sure Dan Clark products would score higher in terms of soundstage, and there's a demand for it. I'm just not part of the segment I guess.
Aerith Gainsborough
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- May 4, 2020
- Messages
- 853
- Likes
- 1,280
That was a super interesting video, especially seeing a professional say that there are things where we indeed have not yet found a consensus and that more research is needed. Well done.
I'd love to listen to the can he talked about but damn, that price tag is something else. :'D
A headphone does not.
That being said: I enjoy both for what they are and basically let mood dictate what I prefer on a given day.
I'd love to listen to the can he talked about but damn, that price tag is something else. :'D
If we're talking about real life scenarios: no room is perfect. Especially not real living rooms. So a speaker setup will always have to compromise somehow.
A headphone does not.
That being said: I enjoy both for what they are and basically let mood dictate what I prefer on a given day.
PatF
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2022
- Messages
- 195
- Likes
- 210
Two different worlds Headphones and Loudspeakers. For me headphones are for more analytical more like looking at things through magnifying glass. Loudspeakers are more for "concert like experience" which most of the time is more clear and precise than real concert. Very rarely concert space is optimal and we tend to not optimize it (especially for classical music). I also enjoy both worlds and have in mind their strengths and weaknesses.
Last edited:
Cote Dazur
Addicted to Fun and Learning
What an amazing video that explains so much in such short time, I guess spending a year at ASR helps a lot on just understanding what it all means.
At about 20 minutes Dan Clark mention FFT and shows what a specific instrument note looks like, the importance of the fundamental and harmonics are in allowing to identify what the instrument is and how it is played, then also explain how even a small amount of THD modify both how the instrument sound and how we perceive it is played.
That explains so much, Thank you @Dan Clark for sharing the knowledge.
@amirm when you show THD in a review, like this one (just for an example)
Can we have an idea from this how a specific instrument will sound and we will perceived it is played.
At about 20 minutes Dan Clark mention FFT and shows what a specific instrument note looks like, the importance of the fundamental and harmonics are in allowing to identify what the instrument is and how it is played, then also explain how even a small amount of THD modify both how the instrument sound and how we perceive it is played.
That explains so much, Thank you @Dan Clark for sharing the knowledge.
@amirm when you show THD in a review, like this one (just for an example)
Can we have an idea from this how a specific instrument will sound and we will perceived it is played.
It depends on what type of Harmonic Distortion it is: 2nd order, 3rd order, 4th order, etc. 2nd Order Harmonic Distortion measured at 20Hz means that there will a corresponding lower SPL level mimicry of the 20Hz musical event but at twice the frequency (so at 40Hz). 3rd Order Harmonic Distortion measured at 20Hz means there will be a corresponding lower SPL level mimicry of the 20Hz musical event at three times the frequency (so at 60Hz). 4th Order Harmonic Distortion is 4 times the frequency, and so on & so forth you go up the orders of Harmonic Distortion. So Harmonic Distortion adds in signals that aren't there in the recorded music , and it adds them further up the frequency range - how far depends on the frequency it originated at & also what the order of the Harmonic Distortion is - so higher order Harmonic Distortion will appear further up the frequency range in terms of the perceived effects of it......which is why some distortion can end up adding brightness that shouldn't be there for instance. On the same token, 2nd Order Harmonic Distortion at 20Hz would actually add to the overall bass level, as it would be perceived as something being added (which shouldn't be there) at 40Hz, so you get the original fundamental signal at 20Hz and then you also get the 40Hz signal, so that's adding to the bass - I suppose it can also cloud the bass though and make it less detailed as it's adding in stuff that shouldn't be there (so those added signals could have a masking/clouding effect of the parts you should be hearing that are in the actual music) . That's my understanding of it, and I'm welcome for people that know to correct some of my understanding or to add to it.What an amazing video that explains so much in such short time, I guess spending a year at ASR helps a lot on just understanding what it all means.
At about 20 minutes Dan Clark mention FFT and shows what a specific instrument note looks like, the importance of the fundamental and harmonics are in allowing to identify what the instrument is and how it is played, then also explain how even a small amount of THD modify both how the instrument sound and how we perceive it is played.
That explains so much, Thank you @Dan Clark for sharing the knowledge.
@amirm when you show THD in a review, like this one (just for an example)
Can we have an idea from this how a specific instrument will sound and we will perceived it is played.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2019
- Messages
- 11,096
- Likes
- 14,753
No. But if you listen loud and the track has lots of sub 100hz content you know that youre not listening to just what's in the source file.
You might be surprised how little of that you notice though.
Sharur
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2021
- Messages
- 476
- Likes
- 214
A couple corrections:
1. Harman gave listeners a flat in-room magnitude response measured at the DRP as the baseline for headphone equalization. The speakers were not equalized to resemble the sound power of the Revel F208 in-room (speakers used in "Listener Preferences for In-Room Loudspeaker and Headphone Target Responses."
2. The preferred headphone response is compared to the preferred in-room magnitude response of the loudspeakers, which can be predicted for typical domestic rooms based on anechoic or klippel NFS measurements with the formula 12% direct sound, 44% early reflections, and 44% sound power.
1. Harman gave listeners a flat in-room magnitude response measured at the DRP as the baseline for headphone equalization. The speakers were not equalized to resemble the sound power of the Revel F208 in-room (speakers used in "Listener Preferences for In-Room Loudspeaker and Headphone Target Responses."
2. The preferred headphone response is compared to the preferred in-room magnitude response of the loudspeakers, which can be predicted for typical domestic rooms based on anechoic or klippel NFS measurements with the formula 12% direct sound, 44% early reflections, and 44% sound power.
Where the heck do you go shopping for such great dualities? [PM me, please!
]Although this is not a binary (either/or) concept; I think MUSIC wins every time over fidelity.
MUSIC without FIDELITY has/can bring immense enjoyment ... yet, the reverse is a non-sequitur! [<< tin-cans? anyone?]
dasdoing
Major Contributor
has anybody tried this method of "copying the speaker sound"?
A few people on here, if it counts: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/frontal-sound-and-correct-frequency-response-with-eq-only.853443/
Haven't seen any negative reports yet.
Dr. Griesinger claims everyone he had try it at various events was wowed, but it should be noted that that was 1. with in-ears, 2. with concert hall recordings made with his custom dummy head. Those are required apparently if you want the maximum benefit of this method wrt. believable frontal out-of-head placement of virtual sound sources. But even without that, what I've found on a few headphones of different sizes and using regular commercial recordings is the most satisfying FR I'd ever heard, I've considered this type of EQ-ing mandatory for any critical listening setup ever since.
Last edited:
dasdoing
Major Contributor
Similar threads
- Poll
