Exactly, how much does vinyl suck less than it did 30 years ago? This needs to be quantified.

[Robin L]

So your point is quit using anything made since the industrial age began?

The stream of the 2015 remaster of "Tusk" I'm listening to now initially involved a mountain of cocaine, which is pretty environmentally hazardous, I guess.

In any case, the streaming source I'm using eats energy, probably powered by coal-fired electrical generators.

Every time I fire up my computer, an angel dies.

 

[whereisbrian]

Since that can happen to any modern (yeah, I know, vinyl is not so modern) item being made (poisoning the environment with an accident), why don't you just revert to being a hermit & don't use anything made after 1800 or so? Jeez, what a DUMB point.
I'm just telling it like it REALLY is!

As is manufacturing most anything (if you are not careful). So your point is quit using anything made since the industrial age began?

My suggestion is to limit this kind of pollution as much as possible. But everyone is free to do as they please.

Buying vinyl records encourages a polluting industrial practice. This is inherent to all production: it depletes resources and produces waste that can be recycled to varying degrees.

We can always simply listen to music without thinking about it; it's just a matter of our level of awareness of our environment—me first, or all of us.

 

[EJ3]

I guess many of us have pet peeves.
Since I don't find vinyl records out in the woods when I am hunting, I don't particularly view them as polluting.
But I do run into a lot of other waste that shouldn't be in the forest, so I feel strongly about those issues.
As to vinyl chloride itself:
Vinyl chloride is used primarily (> 95%) in the manufacture of polyvinyl chloride (PVC), which comprises about 12% of the total use of plastic worldwide (WHO, 1999). The largest use of PVC is in the production of plastic piping. Other important uses are in floor coverings, consumer goods, electrical applications and in the transport sector. About 1% of PVC is used to produce vinyl chloride/vinyl acetate copolymer. Minor uses of vinyl chloride (monomer) include the manufacture of chlorinated solvents (primarily 10 000 tonnes per year of 1,1,1-trichloroethane) and the production of ethylene diamine for the manufacture of resins (WHO, 1999; European Commission, 2003).

Vinyl chloride has been used in the past as a refrigerant, as an extraction solvent for heat-sensitive materials, in the production of chloroacetaldehyde, as an aerosol propellant and in drugs and cosmetic products; these uses were banned in the United States of America (USA) by the Environmental Protection Agency in 1974 (IARC, 2008)

Apparently it's use as records is a pretty miniscule use, as it is not mentioned.
But it is mentioned here in off gassing, (something that happens in a short and limited time):

PVC products may contain VCM as a residue from production and release it in the air. In a German survey (1976–77), the following articles released VCM at levels > 0.05 ppm [0.13 mg/m3] by off-gassing in the air: bathroom tiles, piping, plastic bottles for table oil, and kitchen wrapping-film. The highest concentrations were observed to come from vinyl music records, with values of 20–50 ppm measured for nine of 14 records sampled, but even higher in some of the others. The VCM concentrations released by toys, kitchen utensils, food wrappings, wall-paper, and car interiors were < 0.05 ppm (German Environmental Office, 1978). The introduction of improved manufacturing practices has considerably reduced the residual content of VCM in PVC products (WHO, 1999).

I could not find any better information on this, unfortunately.
But it seems to me that there are many other things to do better that would have a much larger positive effect than doing something about vinyl records.

 

[Sal1950]

I only owned a few of MFs albums, but I was very crestfallen when my copy of Sergeant Pepper’s by The Beatles got a huge pop on one of the tracks after only a dozen playings. For me, that was the turning point where I decided that I would never buy vinyl again unless it was for a recording that was not available on CD.

Funny you should mention this, I've only heard it brought up a couple times before but I experienced the same with a couple MF titles ???
After is became a few years old, I'd pull it out of it's fancy rice or whatever sleeve and at some point I'd hear a really loud pop. A close visual inspection of the surface would reveal a divot somewhere along the grove that looked like someone had taken the point of a hot needle and pressed it into the groove? Don't know if it was the result of out-gassing of vinyl or some other material defect but it wasn't from anything I had done, I since the very early 1970s I used TOTL MM and MC needles and all the rest. Talk about being really pissed, after paying maybe twice or more for the disc than for one from a standard label. Grrrr.

Vinyl in audio was over & done, but, like Small Pox, it’s back… and for no good reason.

There was a "good reason", like the various forms of wire interconnects, power cords, and much more, the movers and shakers in the HIGH-END media found that the CD and other digital sources could be a financial dead-end. Just about any decent CD players sound quality couldn't be improved on no matter how much was spent. They tried most everything from putting tubes in the players circuit, to telling you the paint the edges of the CD with some lunny device but CD's could, for just a few dollars reproduce a bit-perfect copy of what the mic's heard in the studio. So what to do?, have the golden eared gurus tell the music lovers that digital was a bad turn, it sounded hard and edgy, if you spend a few thousand dollars or more on turntables, needles, preamps, tick and pop removers and all the rest, that a smashed hockey puck was the path to nirvana in sound. Pick up any issue of Stereophile or The Absolute Sound and you might almost think that digital didn't exist. 150 pages of lies in articles on VERY EXPENSIVE vinyl gear and it's ad's, together with almost as much BS on the High-Ends other Snake-Oil market like wire, grounding boxes, USB cleaners, SET tube amps, and so much other nearly useless crap.
It's all really just so sad, if just a small percentage of the time, money, and effort was put into investigating the things that really matter in recording and playback chains of SOTA music, we could have come far. Instead we fart around with dragging a rock thru a ditch trying to reproduce sound in the same manner as Edison invented almost 150 years ago.

 

[Greg Chick]

What for? The technological peak of the format was just over 45 years ago.

The technological peak is not the issue or the question. Other factors exist. One issue is that the resergence is causing the remasters to be offered on LP, some remasters are way better than the original. So, to get the cleaner signal and maybe a couple extra tracks previously not released, the remaster on vinyl is something of value to vinyl ears. I seek best possible source, both CD and Vinyl offer very poor options, and best options in the High Fidelity world.

My only complant with CD's as a catogorical thing is the "Jewel" cases are mostly cheap plastic. The CD's often have printed content in unreadable pica size print.

 

[EJ3]

The technological peak is not the issue or the question. Other factors exist. One issue is that the resergence is causing the remasters to be offered on LP, some remasters are way better than the original. So, to get the cleaner signal and maybe a couple extra tracks previously not released, the remaster on vinyl is something of value to vinyl ears. I seek best possible source, both CD and Vinyl offer very poor options, and best options in the High Fidelity world.

My only complant with CD's as a catogorical thing is the "Jewel" cases are mostly cheap plastic. The CD's often have printed content in unreadable pica size print.

And the flip side MANY remasters are much worse, due to the killing off of dynamic range.
Maybe dbx will make a big comeback?

 

[krabapple]

I'm totally spitballing here, but since the birth of LP technology, there have been gigantic advances in micro-printing and light-etching onto materials for electronics use. Could this be applied to make the waveforms printed into analog platter media more accurate versus literally gouging them out with a lathe? And if so would it be enough of a difference to matter?

 

[krabapple]

And the flip side MANY remasters are much worse, due to the killing off of dynamic range.
Maybe dbx will make a big comeback?

Think of it this way: vinyl is sufficient to supply a good dynamic range, but it certainly isn't necessary. It can be done effortlessly by digital media.
It's simply a matter of choice at the production end.

 

[Robin L]

Think of it this way: vinyl is sufficient to supply a good dynamic range, but it certainly isn't necessary. It can be done effortlessly by digital media.
It's simply a matter of choice at the production end.

Vinyl is not sufficient to supply a good dynamic range with a lot of classical music. There's something called a musical rest, lots of pop productions don't have that going on. And the dynamic range of, say, Mahler's 3rd symphony, would have the ppp passages submerged in surface noise unless the peaks are compressed. Much easier to reproduce this sort of music in the digital domain.

 

[TimF]

This is probably the place to post this. I have a used Koetsu Black Goldline that needs a retipping. If someone wants it I will mail it to them. No cost. Prefer someone in the USA. Tim Fleetham email: [email protected]

 

[JP]

The technological peak is not the issue or the question. Other factors exist. One issue is that the resergence is causing the remasters to be offered on LP, some remasters are way better than the original. So, to get the cleaner signal and maybe a couple extra tracks previously not released, the remaster on vinyl is something of value to vinyl ears. I seek best possible source, both CD and Vinyl offer very poor options, and best options in the High Fidelity world.

My only complant with CD's as a catogorical thing is the "Jewel" cases are mostly cheap plastic. The CD's often have printed content in unreadable pica size print.

Objective performance was exactly the question.

 

[JP]

This is probably the place to post this. I have a used Koetsu Black Goldline that needs a retipping. If someone wants it I will mail it to them. No cost. Prefer someone in the USA. Tim Fleetham email: [email protected]

@mackat

 

[EJ3]

Think of it this way: vinyl is sufficient to supply a good dynamic range, but it certainly isn't necessary. It can be done effortlessly by digital media.
It's simply a matter of choice at the production end.

For most rock, pop, jazz, blues, and smaller swing bands, vinyl CAN BE sufficient. So why take what was great and remake it while squashing it?
If I want to listen to listen to classical, it's possible to get the dynamic range with 45 RPM records. But CD's & other digital media seems to make more sense.
But I was thinking about the not so NEW but ongoing vinyl revolution folks.
I have the music I like, collected on vinyl since 1972 or so, on pristine records and CD's (for my digital side).
A lot of what I have is German, Austrian, Italian and other music that never made it to CD's, much less other digital.
I have a DAC inside my oPPo 205 USD. It's never been used. And I can make 20 bit recordings onto CD-R's but I don't.
No streaming where I live (no cell phone signal unless I stand on the deck in a certain position and hold it) & if streaming comes, I probably won't be happy with the population per square mile & will move.

 

[Joe Smith]

It is certainly enjoyable and efficient if one likes to use the medium. Cost-wise, for newbies, probably not the best value, but sometimes the experience is worth it. I enjoy it, but I like all different sources.

 

[Greg Chick]

And the flip side MANY remasters are much worse, due to the killing off of dynamic range.
Maybe dbx will make a big comeback?

The original Master matters! then the remaster matters, then the printing/groving to what ever format matters, then how many LP's are pressed from the master for the LP if that is the format.
To all that, a bitchen ass file into a bitchen ass DA matters as well & with less bridges to cross. Less Phono turntable or disc spinners Etc. So, that seems best.
Untill, one has to pay a monthly fee to stream, or get lost in a digital quicksand of Apps and or Ads or limitted choices! I like to hear the whole album, Abby Road, Etc. and I refuse to be told what is new and have that stuffed into my ear!

I like album covers too. But, the damm space they consume! What a first world problem...

 

[EJ3]

My album (and of course, covers: solution):

 

[Chrispy]

When I gave up buying vinyl in the 90s, the rule of thumb was that the standard LP had a dynamic range of around 45 to 50dB on a brand new major label recording. Some were better and some were worse.

The only exception to this when it came to popular music was Mobile Fidelity. Their releases would give you about 10 dB less noise and distortion. Also, usually they would last longer because the discs were so thick, but this was not always the case.

I only owned a few of MFs albums, but I was very crestfallen when my copy of Sergeant Pepper’s by The Beatles got a huge pop on one of the tracks after only a dozen playings. For me, that was the turning point where I decided that I would never buy vinyl again unless it was for a recording that was not available on CD.

This all being said, I’ve been hearing all of this PR crap about the Vinyl Renaissance. Is the product being made today any better than what was offered 30 years ago?

Has anyone actually tested what the sound to noise ratio and distortions are being produced by modern vinyl and the systems used to play them back (other than photo preamps)?

One of my hobbies is not only designing loudspeakers, but also audio engineering since I’m also a musician.

One of the reasons that I moved to digital audio from R2R tape is that digital offered greater fidelity and much less noise & distortion. Also, tape requires a lot more maintenance… And, oh, there was the fact that tape was/is really expensive.

So, you guys measure stuff here. Any thoughts about taking a modern vinyl recording and comparing it through software to its digital release? Give them a serious, objective measurement based comparison to show the difference between them.

I’d think that acoustic music would yield the best results and it would be optimal if the source was recorded digitally and released in a hi-res, 24 bit format.

I imagine someone will have done this in the past, but I’ve not seen it.

My experience makes me think that Vinyl will lose to Digital worse than the Chiefs lost to the Eagles at the Superbowl (BOOM!) this year. (Go EAGLES… yeah, I said it)

Sorry, got carried away.

Anyway, a delicate, hi-res mastered, acoustic music recording compared using the best of both formats. Run them through the best competitor software and see what the results are. Then, release the proof to the world.

You can even give Vinyl a mulligan by running the digital signal through a DAC and capture it with the input ADC.

Your thoughts?

I haven't bought vinyl in 30 years. Still have my tt and vinyl collection, but see no need to add to it.

 

[Joe Smith]

Part of the pleasure of staying with vinyl now is, frankly, returning to real record stores (as in the days of my youth) and finding either an old friend that I don't already own, or something new I didn't yet have on my radar. Growing up in the 60s, that was the place we found out about new music, talked with others, thumbed through Rolling Stone. While I don't buy much, and I gawk a bit at the young 'uns buying 15 or 20 LPs at a crack, I still enjoy the ritual. Now at age 67, I consider how many times I will play something I'm buying. I'm done with collecting for collecting's sake.

We have several very good stores in town, and I enjoy hitting record stores as we travel, though unless it's a car trip, I don't pick up vinyl.

 

[Sjkrabbe]

I'm totally spitballing here, but since the birth of LP technology, there have been gigantic advances in micro-printing and light-etching onto materials for electronics use. Could this be applied to make the waveforms printed into analog platter media more accurate versus literally gouging them out with a lathe? And if so would it be enough of a difference to matter?

The attempt to do something like this has been done - but failed economically before they reached something in their research that really worked - The company was called Rebeat Innovation GmbH and tried a lot of things from 2017 and some years onwards - the concept was simply called "HD Vinyl". All along the way I hoped they would succed in developing a method that worked, but they ran out of money before they got a working methode - too sad!
Read the story here:

Breaking News: HD Vinyl Enters Bankruptcy (and Some Thoughts On Vinyl

Over the past 130 years or so, very little has changed in disk recording, mastering and record manufacturing. The shift from acoustic recording to electrical recording took place in the 1930s, the transition from wax blanks to lacquer blanks happened shortly thereafter, and that was followed by...

www.psaudio.com

 

[Sal1950]

This is probably the place to post this. I have a used Koetsu Black Goldline that needs a retipping. If someone wants it I will mail it to them. No cost. Prefer someone in the USA. Tim Fleetham email:

Danger Will Robinson, Tim possibly you already know this but it's really a bad idea to post your email publicly like that.
That is a generous offer for our vinylhead members but a great alternative is to ask interested parties to send you a PM from which you can then get/give further details.
There are spam bot's and worse that comb the web for emails to add to their database.
Good luck. Sal