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Ex-subjectivists on ASR

Are you a former subjectivist? What are you now? (See post for explanations)

  • Yes

    Votes: 84 35.6%
  • No

    Votes: 80 33.9%
  • Subjectivist

    Votes: 5 2.1%
  • Soft / moderate objectivist

    Votes: 83 35.2%
  • Objectivist

    Votes: 115 48.7%

  • Total voters
    236

sq225917

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I never believed in the un-science stuff, but I did used to believe that the little things made a difference.

Now I'm plain wire and numbers 100%. Thetes no magic sauce, just variable emotional state.
 

restorer-john

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I'm both subjectivist and objectivist.

In relation to modern HiFi, it has to measure well (by me or someone I trust), be well built, attractive, solid, fit for purpose, reliable and repairable. I have to like it.

When it comes to vintage HiFi, things are different. It has to measure well (after any issues are rectified), be well engineered and have no fundamental circuit design flaws. If it does, can they be rectified without re-designing the whole thing? Is it a statement piece from a past era and do I enjoy using or owning it?

If I've poured many hours into bringing something back from the dead, it may get a special place in my system for a short period. Some gear almost has a 'soul'. The pieces I've literally dug out of the dirt and rebuilt from the ground up in my younger restoration days, never fail and never let me down. It's almost like they are thankful to have been saved from landfill.
 

Chrispy

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Depends what aspect of audio I suppose. Some subjectivity on my own account of course is unavoidable, but investing in others' subjective experience/description not so interesting. Buying/using audio gear is a means to an end, i.e. enjoying the reproduction of recordings, not a particular quest for the perfect gear.

If someone is subjectively describing what they heard in electronics I've generally not found that to bear out, nor found it particularly important in any case even if a slight difference exists (assuming functioning properly otherwise). I find the vlogs/blogs/magazines that focus on that sort of description of electronics to be a waste of my time and generally ignore them except for amusement. I don't have time to go test every possible device either, so measurement and feature sets and a read of the manual are generally going to work for me; my mood or the environment is much more likely to account for differences (or differences in simply the quality of the recording/mix). I originally started out with the magazines that focused on testing, and the more they transitioned to wishful thinking/creative writing about audio qualities I just generally lost interest in such.

If someone is describing what cables/wire and lifters and magic dots and other silly tweaks do or sound like, it just casts doubt on them and pretty much anything else audio-wise they may have to opine about. I got wire guidance from my grandfather with my first good setup when I was 16, he was a distinguished EE and former pro sound guy; particularly my first speaker wires, some basic zipcord. The silly stuff largely hadn't appeared yet then ('73) and I had only used some supplied wires/connectors that came with an inexpensive Panasonic record player/8-track/receiver/speakers system before that. I remember he helped me with wiring in a new house somewhere in 81 or so too; he had a nice list of expletives for those that were starting to market the "audiophile" wires then ('81?).

Subjective descriptions of speakers I find not all that useful nor consistent, and will mostly rely on measurements as a starting point. I will read user comments in forums for a general idea of performance. I haven't lived near where there's much in the way of speaker demos for quite a while either, so internet direct and other internet based orders work great for me. A long time ago I found out for myself how differently speakers can sound in different rooms, too. I've found almost all the speakers I've bought to work just fine.

Still not sure how to vote :)
 

computer-audiophile

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Some gear almost has a 'soul'.
I feel the same way, and I'm just thinking about what makes it so. Maybe if a lot of love and dedication from a designer of distinction and audiophile has gone into it. Or it is loaded with history. Hard to describe, I continue to think about it. Of course, it must also sound very good.

It is easier for me to describe the opposite. A Topping DAC or a Genelec Monitor has no soul, imo. It is the sober result of CAD/CAM and engineering teamwork.
 
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Multicore

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I feel the same way, and I'm just thinking about what makes it so. Maybe if a lot of love and dedication from a designer of distinction and audiophile has gone into it. Or it is loaded with history. Hard to describe, I continue to think about it. Of course, it must also sound very good.

It is easier for me to describe the opposite. A Topping DAC or a Genelec Monitor has no soul, imo. It is the sober result of CAD/CAM and engineering teamwork.
My family and dogs have soul. Literature, art and films have soul. Most of the music I like has soul. And I prefer if the audio equipment I use to listen to music does not insist on inserting its "soul" (whatever that might be) into the relationship between me and the music.
 

Multicore

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Most of us old timers started out as subjectivists because there wasn't much objective information available. Before digital audio we had nothing but phono cartridges with wild frequency response and the best we could do was find loudspeakers which had opposite flaws. Test gear was rudimentary. Today with reasonably priced transparent electronics, REW and the work of Toole and Olive available, it's a lot easier to be objective.
If the "subjectivism" we're talking about is an insistence that subjective judgement is a superior way or the only valid way of choosing or designing consumer audio products, then I have a rather opposite impression. It is something that was rather alien when I was introduced to it in the 80s and it grew since then into something very odd.
 

computer-audiophile

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My family and dogs have soul. Literature, art and films have soul. Most of the music I like has soul. And I prefer if the audio equipment I use to listen to music does not insist on inserting its "soul" (whatever that might be) into the relationship between me and the music.
Inspired by the Japanese concept of animism, where objects are believed to possess a spirit or life force called "kami", I see this said "soul". In Japan, people have great respect for inanimate objects and recognize their unique essence. Audio devices can be seen in this way: They embody the history, intentions, spirit and passion of their creators.
(I was probably Japanese in a previous life.) :);)
 

Multicore

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Inspired by the Japanese concept of animism, where objects are believed to possess a spirit or life force called "kami", I see this said "soul". In Japan, people have great respect for inanimate objects and recognize their unique essence. Audio devices can be seen in this way: They embody the history, intentions, spirit and passion of their creators.
(I was probably Japanese in a previous life.) :);)
Ok. But then how come "a Genelec Monitor has no soul". Does it not also "embody the history, intentions, spirit and passion of [its] creators"? And further, how could such a question be a matter of opinion as opposed to one of fact?
 

kemmler3D

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I personally think this question of soul has more to do with an apparent "craftsmanlike" aesthetic (including how the object is marketed) than anything else. Nothing wrong with that, but shintoism is definitely a divergent category of audiophilia vs. objectivism or subjectivism. ;)
 

computer-audiophile

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Ok. But then how come "a Genelec Monitor has no soul". Does it not also "embody the history, intentions, spirit and passion of [its] creators"? And further, how could such a question be a matter of opinion as opposed to one of fact?
Good question, but the massive use of CAD/CAM methods, the partly international teamwork of designers and engineers are probably detrimental to the kami. :cool:
 

fpitas

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I personally think this question of soul has more to do with an apparent "craftsmanlike" aesthetic (including how the object is marketed) than anything else. Nothing wrong with that, but shintoism is definitely a divergent category of audiophilia vs. objectivism or subjectivism. ;)
The 511 looks like a part of a grade-B sci-fi movie. In fact, it was used as a prop for a death ray once. I wonder if that influenced my design choice :D
 

computer-audiophile

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You can't depict the soul of audio things very well. But such setups as in my photo breathe the spirit of history. They radiate a dignity for me. Not to mention that in the hands of connoisseurs they also make wonderful music. At home today I have to make do with domesticated horn speakers, but in which the genes of their ancestors, the cinema speakers can still be guessed.

vott.jpg
 
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recycle

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Analyze this phrase:
"Those studio monitors give me a unique vibe"
This so called "vibe" is not verifiable with science, so: will it be a false statement? No, that's not how it works, science is not concerned with what it cannot prove. The scientific method is not applicable to love
 

AdamG

Proving your point makes it “Science”.
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Still not sure how to vote
I think that applies to most of us. A work in progress should be an option! For me anyway.
 

Ron Texas

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If the "subjectivism" we're talking about is an insistence that subjective judgement is a superior way or the only valid way of choosing or designing consumer audio products, then I have a rather opposite impression. It is something that was rather alien when I was introduced to it in the 80s and it grew since then into something very odd.
As a response to my statement yours doesn't make any sense to me. It might make sense on its own.
 

Multicore

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As a response to my statement yours doesn't make any sense to me. It might make sense on its own.
I was responding to "Most of us old timers started out as subjectivists because..." by expressing that my impression was of the reverse, that subjectivism (under that caveat of my vague understanding of what it means) encroached into the home audio hobby, took a lot of mind-share, and became this big weird thing. My recollection is of it arriving and growing over time.
 
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