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Evidence-based Speaker Designs

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Ilkless

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I appreciate the detailed answer. However, it appears you are talking about the KH120 horizontal directivity plot. I was discussing the vertical:

kh120_ver_directivity_510.gif

and how the KH120 plot is "twirly" at negative angles, compared to smoother, more symmetrical plot of port-less KH310:

neumann_kh310_ver_directivity_510.gif

How do you isolate the fact that both speakers have totally different driver configurations (orientation on baffle, CtC, radiation pattern of drivers due to totally different geometry, different waveguide geometry) from the presence of ports and conclude that it is the ports that have such an overriding effect on vertical directivity? This is pure pseudoscience: the unsubstantiated, unwarranted and intuitive appropriation of known empirical phenomena, while wilfully ignoring the total lack of control of so many other variables.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...
 

pozz

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first principles of acoustics
A semi-off topic question about "first principles"—I'm curious what (or which ones) you mean. The main thing acoustics demonstrates in my mind is that you can't derive or deduce performance causally from an initial set of premises. Without measurements, acoustic behaviour can only be modelled, i.e., represented through the interdependence of a number of factors.
 

KSTR

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I thought, based on my hands-on experimentation with KH120, available polar plots, and opinions of some reviewers, that the shape and placement of the ports had something to do with the directivity control, yet I won't insist on such interpretation.
The answer would be to measure. Make a few measurement under different vertical angles with ports blocked vs without. I'm pretty sure the off-axis responses don't change a jota, at least not any more than what can be expected from the slight geometry change alone -- the blocked ports present a slightly different boundary for the sound field and some minor change in diffraction will occur.

Remember, to get some directivity from port leakage its contribution must be the same order of magnitude than the signal from the cone, something we want to avoid as much as possible to begin with. Leakage is not at all our friend and high leakage cannot be deteministically shaped to fulfill the magnitude and notably strict phase requirements so that something like a controlled wideband directivity shaping could ever be obtained.

So, please simply forget that thought, it doesn't happen.
 

Cosmik

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Is the suggestion being made that the reverse phase leakage from a port is acting like the holes in the side of a D&D 8C and producing a 'cardioid'-style output..? Interesting thought..!
 

Sergei

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I'm interested in your views on ports, Sergei. You were very careful to discriminate between continuous sine waves and transients in the discussions on MQA. Do you extend this to your views on ports?

Yes. A short pulse transforms into a wide spectrum. Thus, woofer also participates in a pulse reproduction, unless a clever DSP algorithm reassigns such pulse reproduction exclusively to tweeter. In speakers with passive crossovers, and in many, if not most, active speakers such reassignment doesn't happen.

If a woofer of a ported speaker isn't dampened well enough, the "smear" in time domain follows. If the speaker is tuned to have a low-frequency hump, this effect is exacerbated. Ports are generally disadvantageous in this context, yet an acoustically suspended woofer can also exhibit lack of sufficient dampening and resonances in audible range.

To summarize: a properly designed ported speaker can exhibit excellent accuracy of short pulses reproduction; not so advanced acoustic suspension design may be not so good in this respect; on average over units sold, it appears that acoustic suspension speakers tend to be more accurate in this regard, because achieving the accuracy is less expensive than with ported design.
 

Sergei

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I can tell you are a serious man, and I take you very seriously. However, the conversation on this subject between me and another member has gotten a bit more heated than I'm comfortable with.

To mitigate that, I'm going to ignore attempts at personal insults from those who don't seem to appreciate that members of this form are forming mutually respectful long-term relationships, and some of them already exhibited a desire to meet in person over a beer or two.

Also, I will try my best to add a bit of humor to my replies to those who are keen to maintain a polite professional discussion. I very much appreciate the opportunity to communicate directly with professionals in the field, as well as with advanced enthusiasts.
The answer would be to measure. Make a few measurement under different vertical angles with ports blocked vs without. I'm pretty sure the off-axis responses don't change a jota, at least not any more than what can be expected from the slight geometry change alone -- the blocked ports present a slightly different boundary for the sound field and some minor change in diffraction will occur.

Oh well, it did come to blocking the ports with socks :)

A serious question: how slight is "slight"? A 1.5 db change in 3rd to 5th harmonic of a female singer voice may change the perception of her vocal delivery from happy and relaxed to somewhat anxious or angry.
Remember, to get some directivity from port leakage its contribution must be the same order of magnitude than the signal from the cone, something we want to avoid as much as possible to begin with.

Here I disagree, if by "order of magnitude" you mean 10 dB. Going from 1.5 SPL dB to percentage of pressure gives 109%. So, an un-dampened port with an area of 9% relative to the woofer area can generate noticeable differences at some frequencies and some locations in space. In certain cases, this could be interpreted as changes in directivity.
Leakage is not at all our friend and high leakage cannot be deteministically shaped to fulfill the magnitude and notably strict phase requirements so that something like a controlled wideband directivity shaping could ever be obtained.

Designers of D&D 8c appear to think that leakage is not an obstacle, but rather a friend of what they call "Completely accurate music reproduction" :)

Seriously though, I agree with what you are saying.
So, please simply forget that thought, it doesn't happen.

I positioned my KH120s per the owner manual suggestions, angled them down 15 degrees, and forgot about their quirks at negative vertical angles: whatever happens there is sufficiently dampened by carpet, soft furniture, books etc. So, from usability perspective, it indeed doesn't noticeably happen in the practical context of my use.

Going back to science. Human hearing system is attuned to compensate for smooth high frequencies attenuation in human voices. One example would be hearing from an angle a person speaking or singing. Another would be hearing a voice through a foliage.

So, as long as, at given vertical and horizontal angles, the perceived frequencies balance could be interpreted by the hearing system as a natural phenomenon, the illusion of hearing actual voice is maintained.

The above is actually a very strong argument in favor of Dr. Toole et al. findings, from the psychoacoustics perspective. A smooth attenuation of high frequencies at increasing angles is natural, and thus is preferred by most listeners.

If, however, the balance shifts the other way, like what I call "twirly" 1KHz-2KHz region in the KH120 vertical polar map, instead of smooth attenuation we are getting rather severe humps and dips at vertical angles beyond approximately -30 degrees.

A hump in the vocal region, which is roughly analogous to a resonance, is very noticeable. It changes the timbre, thus perceived emotional state of the singer, and thus distorts the artistic intent. A dip may have an effect of a vocalist getting robbed of her or his emotion, thus also distorting the artistic intent.

What I've noticed when the KH120 was installed too high were annoying changes in timbre balance on some songs, correlated with seemingly small changes in my head position. When KH120 is positioned properly, this effect is utterly absent. Or perhaps being a man who has been married for over quarter of a century, I just may be attuned to emotions expressed by a female voice more acutely than the average population :)
 
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pozz

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If, however, the balance shifts the other way, like what I call "twirly" 1KHz-2KHz region in the KH120 vertical polar map, instead of smooth attenuation we are getting rather severe humps and dips at vertical angles beyond approximately -30 degrees.
That narrowing around the crossover region makes for serious annoyance when mixing. Head movements change the response significantly.
 

Sergei

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A semi-off topic question about "first principles"—I'm curious what (or which ones) you mean. The main thing acoustics demonstrates in my mind is that you can't derive or deduce performance causally from an initial set of premises. Without measurements, acoustic behaviour can only be modelled, i.e., represented through the interdependence of a number of factors.

Yep, I agree. I consider "measurements" of loudspeakers by ear to be a first rough approach. Neumann also published the measurements of their speakers, which was a sufficient enough confirmation for me that I don't just hear KH120 undesirable frequency response which is not there at larger negative angles.

I have no doubt that Neumann/Sennheiser engineers did extensive system modeling of KH120, and converged on a balanced set of design tradeoffs that ensured achieving target usability levels on parameters of importance for the target market.

By the "first principles", in this specific case, I meant that two of the radiating openings have irregular shapes and are placed asymmetrically in relation to the horizontal axis of the woofer. Thus, the usual results of directivity calculations, qualitatively shared by speakers in a class of topologies, such as acoustically-suspended two-way with 4th order crossover at 2 KHz, are not applicable here.

From the first principles, I expected the function from the 4D space of four coordinates + frequency to sound intensity to be more sophisticated than the ones for simpler topologies. I agree that without access to KH120 simulations, and without precise measuring equipment, it is indeed practically impossible to tell what this function is exactly.

Yet another consideration which will help you understand how I reason about the speakers is that I differentiate among three levels: usability, engineering, science. If a speaker doesn't pass basic usability testing, no amount of claims based on its engineering, leave alone science, will convince me it is acceptable.

In the KH120 case, I needed speakers for surround system, which, due to a remodeling my wife initiated, had to be placed much closer to the listening position than the previous ones. KH120, with its wide horizontal dispersion, proved to be helpful - but only after being properly positioned and angled.

KH310, on the other hand, proved to be more forgiving while listening from various angles, including negative vertical angles. Yet it couldn't be placed, inside, literally, a bookshelf. So here you have it: use KH120 as the owner manual says, and you'll avoid the "acoustic Chernobyl". KH310 has a safer "reactor design" IMHO and can thus be used safely in wider range of applications.
 

jhaider

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That narrowing around the crossover region makes for serious annoyance when mixing. Head movements change the response significantly.

How much do you bob your head up and down when mixing? Keep in mind that a ±15º window at 40" is about 22". I think if you've moving your head up-and-down 20" when mixing, that's called a seizure.

I appreciate the detailed answer. However, it appears you are talking about the KH120 horizontal directivity plot. I was discussing the vertical:

To refresh your recollection, here are your comments that prompted our exchange:
"I own four KH120s, used as surround speakers, placed at a short distance from the listening position. KH120's tweeter waveguide is designed for a very wide horizontal dispersion, and correspondingly produces a large sweet spot at a close distance, which is good for near-field monitoring. When placed farther away, the stereo sweet spot devolves into a sound field that is rather uniformly irradiated from the left and from the right speaker, which creates the sensation of mono-ish sound."

and how the KH120 plot is "twirly" at negative angles, compared to smoother, more symmetrical plot of port-less KH310:

It seems to me that the test case for your port hypothesis would be a speaker with a waveguide of similar design, ports like the KH120, and midrange/tweeter center-to-center spacing like the KH310. If only there were a speaker like that. Oh, wait:

https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/studiomonitore-neumann-kh-80-dsp-die-messdaten/

KH310, on the other hand, proved to be more forgiving while listening from various angles, including negative vertical angles. Yet it couldn't be placed, inside, literally, a bookshelf. So here you have it: use KH120 as the owner manual says, and you'll avoid the "acoustic Chernobyl". KH310 has a safer "reactor design" IMHO and can thus be used safely in wider range of applications.

You never answered this question: "Do you think with speakers with even wider dispersion (flat baffle waveguides), "the stereo sweet spot devolves into a sound field that is rather uniformly irradiated from the left and from the right speaker, which creates the sensation of mono-ish sound." If not, why does the more constrained treble of the KH120 do so?"

I assume, based on the above, your answer is "yes"?
 

pozz

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How much do you bob your head up and down when mixing? Keep in mind that a ±15º window at 40" is about 22". I think if you've moving your head up-and-down 20" when mixing, that's called a seizure.
That's unnecessary. Your points here and in earlier posts are valid anyway, so why get mad?

It's uncomfortable to sit rigid in one spot for hours, not slouching or leaning one way or the other, though the Neumanns in particular have more consistent polar responses than a lot of other monitors.

If there's a main issue it's that @Sergei is linking the effects of summations at the listening position too strongly with speaker design features.
 

jhaider

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That's unnecessary. Your points here and in earlier posts are valid anyway, so why get mad?

Mad? I'm just trying to understand the mechanics of how one moves one's head down vertically that much in a safe manner.

However, now I've read your signature I understand your comment better. I had a chance to listen to several Adam speakers at a demo put on by the distributor when they introduced the current line. They did a rotation between the S2V, S3V, and S3H. Up close I noticed changes in tonality with head movement with all three, but most pronouncedly with the S2V. KH120, JBL 705, JBL 305, pre-coax Genelec, etc. are not as sensitive to head movements. I suspect the Heil tweeter has something to do with that difference. I don't know enough to say if size, height, geometry, mode of operation, or some combination is the culprit. The smaller midrange of the 3-ways helped, but did not eliminate the issue.

All of them, and the S3V in particular, put out really nice sound at normal home listening distances. That is a really fine speaker.
 

Sergei

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It seems to me that the test case for your port hypothesis would be a speaker with a waveguide of similar design, ports like the KH120, and midrange/tweeter center-to-center spacing like the KH310. If only there were a speaker like that. Oh, wait:

https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/studiomonitore-neumann-kh-80-dsp-die-messdaten/

Yeah right. Google-translated from the article you referred to:
"The separation ... is done with a steep, phase-corrected filter 8th order (48 dB / Oct) at 1.8 kHz."

Both KH120 and KH310 have a 4th order analog, probably not as perfectly phase-corrected, crossover at 2.0 kHz. KH80 is a much different speaker, despite similar appearances. Its ports tuning and dampening could be very different too.

Yes, KH80 vertical polar is noticeably smoother than that of KH120. Yet there are several other variables that changed in addition to the different inter-centers distance.
You never answered this question: "Do you think with speakers with even wider dispersion (flat baffle waveguides), "the stereo sweet spot devolves into a sound field that is rather uniformly irradiated from the left and from the right speaker, which creates the sensation of mono-ish sound." If not, why does the more constrained treble of the KH120 do so?"

Acoustic reality is different. Waveguides are designed to provide wider dispersion at high frequencies, as compared to the same tweeter placed into a flat baffle. This is counterintuitive if you think about sound waves as rays of light. Still, it is true. See, for instance A Method of Designing Wide Dispersion Waveguides Using Finite Element Analysis. It says on page 4:

"The purpose of a waveguide is to control the dispersion characteristics of the sound source and it is often used to match the directivity of a HF transducer to the directivity of a LF transducer. Compared to a conventional tweeter, a successful waveguide design will have narrower dispersion at LF and wider dispersion at HF in order to get smoother transitions between drivers."

So, I can't meaningfully answer your question, any more than I could answer the proverbial "Do you still beat your wife?" question. A premise contained in the question is false, and thus the question is unanswerable.
 

jhaider

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Yes, KH80 vertical polar is noticeably smoother than that of KH120. Yet there are several other variables that changed in addition to the different inter-centers distance.

And yet despite all those differences the verticals look an awful lot like a speaker with awaveguide and similar center-to-center spacing. Interesting, that.

Acoustic reality is different. Waveguides are designed to provide wider dispersion at high frequencies, as compared to the same tweeter placed into a flat baffle. This is counterintuitive if you think about sound waves as rays of light. Still, it is true. See, for instance A Method of Designing Wide Dispersion Waveguides Using Finite Element Analysis. It says on page 4:

You quoted this post. Did you read it?

I realize that studying the data presented in a post you chose to reply to may not seem as erudite as plucking an obscure master's thesis out of cyberspace, but that does tell me there's no need to continue this discussion. If nothing else, out of fear it could get more expensive. It has already prompted me to order a pair of KH80 monitors!
 
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Juhazi

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A waveguide does not widen dispersion of a tweeter, but the contrary! The major idea is to match directivity of the midrange near xo frequency, to get smooth or even constant dispersion (or Directivity Index). A waveguide increases axial spl in the low end of the tweeter, which is compensated in crossover design and this gives lower distortion too.

http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neum...69CE5E3F7C125728C006784FC?Open&term=waveguide
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/test_monacor_dt300_wg300/
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ScanSpeak-waveguides.htm

SS 2604 infinite baffle vs. with waveguide from Gravesen below. Notice that directivity above 8kHz remains same!
red-XT25TG-30-04_spl_0.5mtfb_-24.2dB_0-10-20-30.gif

red-XT25TG-30-04_spl_0.5mtfb_-24.2dB_0-10-20-30_B.gif
 

Sergei

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A waveguide does not widen dispersion of a tweeter, but the contrary! The major idea is to match directivity of the midrange near xo frequency, to get smooth or even constant dispersion (or Directivity Index). A waveguide increases axial spl in the low end of the tweeter, which is compensated in crossover design and this gives lower distortion too.

http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neum...69CE5E3F7C125728C006784FC?Open&term=waveguide
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/test_monacor_dt300_wg300/
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ScanSpeak-waveguides.htm

SS 2604 infinite baffle vs. with waveguide from Gravesen below. Notice that directivity above 8kHz remains same!

I believe we are converging our understandings. I accept the validity of statements in the first reference, including:

"In the loudspeaker without dispersion control, the frequency region 1-7 kHz region can be seen to be very wide so in rooms with less than ideal acoustics, the loudspeaker will sound colored. Additionally, the high frequency collapse in dispersion creates a narrow sweet spot in that frequency range."

I was speaking about the waveguide's role in counteracting - by widening - the collapse of dispersion at the higher frequencies of the range that a tweeter reproduces, e.g. over 7 kHz in case of Neumann speakers. From the same first reference - a conventional flat box speaker on the left vs O 500 C on the right:

2d_directivity_plot_for_glossary_31_1.gif
o500c_horizontal_dir_250.gif


I don't accept the references 2 and 3 as a proof. That's how the class of waveguides described there look:


waveguide-06.jpg



waveguide-1-1200.jpg


And this is how one of Dr. Geddes "ideal directivity" - as long as you listen slightly off-axis - waveguides looks:

attachment.php


Note: shape is very different, and the waveguide ratio of depth to diameter is much higher. You can read more about Dr. Geddes waveguides and speakers using them here: http://www.gedlee.com/Loudspeakers/Loudspeakers.aspx. Or read the 7,706 posts discussing them: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/103872-geddes-waveguides-771.html.

According to several opinions I consider informed, the works of Dr. Geddes influenced how waveguides of contemporary studio monitors, including JBL's, are designed. One of such opinions is expressed in https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/123426-horn-vs-waveguide-59.html:

MPro415.jpg


The characteristic property of the properly designed waveguides is smoothly controlled directivity up to at least 16 kHz. The existence and continued use of old-design waveguides that only control directivity up to 8 kHz is not a proof these days.

Look at KH310 horizontal directivity plot, pretty close to ideal between 2 kHz and 18 kHz:

neumann_kh310_hor_directivity_510.gif


Compare this to polar plot of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 (courtesy of jhaider):

Ascend%20Acoustics%20CBM-170%20SE%20H%20Contour%20Plot.png


You can see that the horizontal directivity precipitously narrows after about 5 KHz. That's how this flat-baffle speaker looks like:

170SE_lt_ng_lr.jpg
 

Wombat

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Horns and waveguides have differences. There are good and bad designs in both camps, and in between.

They are the same thing. The different configurations have different results.
 

Juhazi

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_loudspeaker
Waveguide horns
The term "waveguide" is used to describe horns with low acoustic loading, such as conic, quadratic, oblate spheroidal or elliptic cylindrical horns. These are designed more to control the radiation pattern rather than to gain efficiency via improved acoustic loading. All horns have some pattern control, and all waveguides provide a degree of acoustic loading, so the difference between a waveguide and a horn is a matter of judgement.[41]

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/163581-difference-waveguide-horn.html

Dispersion control above 7-8kHz gets tricky because the wavelength is smaller than driver or throat diameter.

Anyway I hold my opinion, that the major effect, benefit and reason to use it is below 7-8kHz, where" loading" and directivy increase.
 
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