Ethan Winer Builds a Wire Null Tester

[Jinjuku]

All I know is my child listens better when whipped with an expensive interconnect vs generic zip cord. Although I may swing harder with the expensive stuff to justify it's cost premium.

 

[Sergei]

Ethan's null tester dose not cook fried chicken..

It's incomplete at best.

According to the schematics, if you supply the right input signals, it might

 

[Sergei]

View attachment 47248

Once signal splitted, random noise are considered statistically independent in error estimation. They don't cancel out in phase reversal.

...

PS. High school psychics are knowledge 200 yrs old.

My credentials include inventing a differential calibration scheme for a detector capable of measuring energy of a single photon, for an experiment at a major US high-energy physics national lab. Both analog schematics design and quantum effects were involved.

For the record, I don't consider myself an expert in the analog circuits design. There are amazing, world-class people associated with the national labs specializing in that. Some of the contributors on this forum remind me of them. Yet I believe I have enough knowledge to contribute to this conversation.

Your argument doesn't seem to take into account the binary nature of nulling as it applies to the audio domain. Namely, what matters is whether the nulled signal can be distinguished from absence of signal by an expert ear. This yes or no is a binary judgement.

While your arguments may make sense in the context of a super-highly-sensitive final-stage detector, they also distract from the fact that whatever the differences the typical audio cables may bring, in practice such differences are swamped by other noises and distortions, including the noises and distortions within the cochlea itself.

This is the psychological trick the pushers of esoteric cables employ. Strictly speaking, there is a difference between the cables, even between two individual cables of the same model manufactured on the same day. With sensitive enough equipment, you may be able to register it. So, when they say there are differences, they are saying the truth, technically.

But does it really matter, practically? As detailed in other forum discussions, on this site and others, such cable differences may only start mattering if, for instance, the audio signal is transmitted over cable in analog AM or FM-modulated form with the carrier frequency in excess of 10 MHz, or via direct transmission over cable lengths exceeding quarter of a mile.

 

[scott wurcer]

View attachment 47248

Once signal splitted, random noise are considered statistically independent in error estimation. They don't cancel out in phase reversal.

This wrong and a mis-application of partition noise. I don't see anything here but different versions of a simple instrumentation amplifier. The voltage signal applied in common to both inputs does not appear at the output. The common mode rejection vs frequency reduces it dramatically.

 

[egellings]

I wonder just how audible the microscopic differences in audio cable transmission characteristics are. I opine that belief influences audio quality perception in cables and other audio accessories. If you think cable B sounds better than cable A, then to you it does. Just hope you never have to prove that in an ABX test, though. If two cables really sound different with a certain amplifier, I'd check the amplifier to be sure that the tail is not wagging the dog somehow.

 

[Thor80]

I don't think Ethan's test will do much to change any of the die-hard believer's mind. The mechanism of the test is too complicated for them to grasp what it is demonstrating.

What it is good for is what Ethan says at the start: that is, we say cables make no difference but we don't have good data to point to. In that regard, it provides more evidence for us to be convinced of its truth.

We believers have always been aware that this is how
Do you think we're stupid?
It's the riddle, the mysterious. And unique to hi-fi

 

[Shazb0t]

We believers have always been aware that this is how
Do you think we're stupid?
It's the riddle, the mysterious. And unique to hi-fi

What? The null test definitively shows how made up audible differences are between competently designed cables. The "believers" are always spouting off about how we can't measure the differences between cables, but instead need to use our ears. That is exactly what the null test provides, the ability to listen to the difference between cables. Unfortunately for the "believers", you can't actually hear anything!

 

[Thor80]

What? The null test definitively shows how made up audible differences are between competently designed cables. The "believers" are always spouting off about how we can't measure the differences between cables, but instead need to use our ears. That is exactly what the null test provides, the ability to listen to the difference between cables. Unfortunately for the "believers", you can't actually hear anything!

As I say there is nothing new in Ethan Winer's test but blind test and many years of Diy tells a different story, I do not have the answers only listening experience which I use to get better sound.
That's why these discussions always go awry, we probably do not have the same experiences, and the same belief in theory and measurement tells everything

 

[pkane]

As I say there is nothing new in Ethan Winer's test but blind test and many years of Diy tells a different story, I do not have the answers only listening experience which I use to get better sound.
That's why these discussions always go awry, we probably do not have the same experiences, and the same belief in theory and measurement tells everything

The experience of a flat earther may be somewhat enlightening here:

"All I know is that I can see that the earth is flat, and those who disagree are ignoring my real experience. Those who use measurements and construct strange theories must not share the same experience as me, and their beliefs are no better than mine."

 

[Frgirard]

The experience of a flat earther may be somewhat enlightening here:

"All I know is that I can see that the earth is flat, and those who disagree are ignoring my real experience. Those who use measurements and construct strange theories must not share the same experience as me, and their beliefs are no better than mine."

People living near the sea, know the earth is round.

 

[BDWoody]

Do you think we're stupid?

Being gullible or misinformed doesn't make one stupid.

many years of Diy tells a different story, I do not have the answers only listening experience which I use to get better sound.

There are lots of stories out there. Some are more like fairy tales...like those that make claims of all kinds of improvements while ignoring the importance of controlling for bias.

 

[pkane]

People living near the sea, know the earth is round.

Don't be so sure. Consider the many millennia that human kind believed that earth is flat. Are you saying that they never came close to the sea in those days?

 

[mansr]

People living near the sea, know the earth is round.

I live in a major port city on the coast. There are flat earthers here.

 

[Killingbeans]

but blind test and many years of Diy tells a different story

Were any of those blind tests reliable?

 

[Killingbeans]

Don't be so sure. Consider the many millennia that human kind believed that earth is flat. Are you saying that they never came close to the sea in those days?

Exactly. Human settlements that aren't situated in coastal areas are minor compared to those that are.

 

[MRC01]

Don't be so sure. Consider the many millennia that human kind believed that earth is flat. Are you saying that they never came close to the sea in those days?

Flat Earth was the simplest explanation or model that was consistent with their experience & knowledge at that time. One might say that the flat Earth model is locally true for any region of Earth bounded by the range & speed of riding on the backs of animals or sailing in ships incapable of crossing oceans. In principle it's not that different from Newtonian mechanics, which is also wrong, but still a useful model for solving problems within certain boundary conditions.

 

[maverickronin]

Myth of the flat Earth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[pkane]

Flat Earth was the simplest explanation or model that was consistent with their experience & knowledge at that time. One might say that the flat Earth model is locally true for any region of Earth bounded by the range & speed of riding on the backs of animals or sailing in ships incapable of crossing oceans. In principle it's not that different from Newtonian mechanics, which is also wrong, but still a useful model for solving problems within certain boundary conditions.

Thankfully, we've progressed past the need to rely on our senses for studying the natural world. Sticking to the outdated beliefs based solely on sensory perceptions is not an equivalent to Newtonian physics in any shape or form.

 

[Shazb0t]

As I say there is nothing new in Ethan Winer's test but blind test and many years of Diy tells a different story, I do not have the answers only listening experience which I use to get better sound.
That's why these discussions always go awry, we probably do not have the same experiences, and the same belief in theory and measurement tells everything

You fundamentally misunderstand what this null test is then. Identical source signals with reversed polarity are sent through two cables (one normal zip cord and one "audiophile") where they are then summed and we actually listen to whatever signal remains. If when aligning the signals a null position (silence in this case) exists then it demonstrates that the signals have cancelled each other out. This is only possible if there is no audible differences between them. Whatever causes the difference wouldn't matter, it only matters that there is some difference, measurable or not!

Ethan hooks that null summation signal up to a speaker and lets you listen to it. He even demonstrates that if you massively increase the null signal gain to see if there is something extremely low level in it that all we can hear is noise floor hiss. For this experiment the signal has never been modified/processed in the audio chain and is setup the same way you would have your speakers setup at home. The problem for you is that there is a null position at all! There cannot be an audible difference literally due to the fact that the null position exists. It's a definitive test that demonstrates the misinformed claim made by cable believers that we can't measure the difference between cables, we can only hear them is false. Well here you go, everyone gets to hear it for themselves. Turns out it's only silence!

Do you understand what is being demonstrated now? There is no magic.

 

[danadam]

There is nothing blind about it.

He didn't say that Ethan's test is blind. He says that some blind tests (and years of DIY) contradict Ethan's test. Which tests exactly is yet to be seen