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Ethan Winer Builds a Wire Null Tester

DonH56

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You say Sodder and I say Solder,
Sodder, solder, let's call the whole thing off.

S.

OK, but who leads? Or is that lead? I dunno', ears of tin... (duckin' and runnin')

I'd totally forgotten this little episode but this thread reminded me... Last year at a local audio store I commented on the open-weave plastic braid on some pricey HDMI cables the salesman was trying to sell me (I needed a new 4K HDMI cable -- ultimately just ordered from Amazon). I don't remember why he said I needed it at first, and I just said I didn't need the abrasion resistance (that is the reason for them on RF cables). He informed me in a rather superior knowing tone that the open weave allowed noise in the cable to get out so the sound and picture were improved. o_O :facepalm: :eek: (etc.) There was really no point is responding to that...
 

Blumlein 88

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It's simply a contradiction in terms to sell a hifi cable without braid these days.

Everyone knows without it you will get all sorts of problems with soundstage and RF interference........
Do you null each pair out against the reference pair as part of QC? :)
 

sergeauckland

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OK, but who leads? Or is that lead? I dunno', ears of tin... (duckin' and runnin')

I'd totally forgotten this little episode but this thread reminded me... Last year at a local audio store I commented on the open-weave plastic braid on some pricey HDMI cables the salesman was trying to sell me (I needed a new 4K HDMI cable -- ultimately just ordered from Amazon). I don't remember why he said I needed it at first, and I just said I didn't need the abrasion resistance (that is the reason for them on RF cables). He informed me in a rather superior knowing tone that the open weave allowed noise in the cable to get out so the sound and picture were improved. o_O:facepalm::eek: (etc.) There was really no point is responding to that...

One salesmen was trying to sell me some very thin, solid-cored 'speaker cables with the explanation that the wire is so thin, there's less to get in the way of the music. Double :facepalm:

S.
 

SIY

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I have been in exactly one store, one time, in maybe 20 years. And that's because there was a Chicago Audio Society meeting there. It was an... interesting experience.
 

restorer-john

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...I have been in exactly one store, one time, in maybe 20 years...

Since leaving the audio business, I only go into the odd store very occasionally and that's only to wish an old colleague or acquaintance a happy Christmas or New Year. Most of them have retired or left and the few that are around have spread out, many went into repping, then ultimately some other line of work.

There's only one HiFi store still in business near us that was around in the 80s.
 

March Audio

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Do you null each pair out against the reference pair as part of QC? :)
My new test is using a perfect anti matter version of the cable. If they cease to exist when brought into contact they pass the QC. If you see on the news a large hole in Western Australia has appeared then something went wrong.
 
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I may surreptitiously wander into Stereo Exchange this weekend for some giggles. I haven't been in a number of years (I most recently got a disastrously incompetent demo of the B&W 805Ds there). Perhaps they've forgotten about me.
I think they closed their Broadway store and now run a boutique location somewhere in Jersey, I’m presuming close to the city.
 

Kal Rubinson

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I think they closed their Broadway store and now run a boutique location somewhere in Jersey, I’m presuming close to the city.
Nope. Closed the big shop on Broadway near Houston and now at 857 Broadway just off Union Square.
 

invaderzim

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We know it is abundantly easy to have people perceive a difference where there is none entering their ear.

We know it is abundantly hard for the sound that enters one's ear to be different based on cable differences.

What should a reasonable person conclude?

What has really amazed me lately is how much effort some will exert to try to find a way that it is something other than perceived difference. There is a thread on another forum where someone listed break-in times for different parts of an amp right down to solder. While I appreciate that people will take the time to consider other ideas it is shocking how long they will spend trying to figure out (convince themselves) things like if the path of electricity through the solder could change over time. It is also interesting that the ability to question things stops at what might cause an actual difference in sound, never extending to maybe there isn't a difference.

It is as if someone said "I hear hoofbeats in the distance; it could be an alien invasion" and the others went "That could be" and then started listing off where the aliens might have come from, what they'd look like, how they'd gotten to earth and how they mastered faster than light travel. The next thing you know people are running panicked into the streets.

Apparently, interior paint also has a break-in time of about a month because that is how long it took me to start liking the new color of our bedroom. It must have changed slightly after the 4th week of being on the wall.

I remember in grade school they used to do yearly hearing tests and I always wanted to be the kid that raised his hand for the tones nobody was supposed to hear. Maybe this "I hear the solder settling in" is the modern version of trying to be that person. Thus the usual "you have to have a highly resolving system and a well trained ear to hear it" defense.
 
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GGroch

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People believe their eyes and ears. If a nerdy science guy says cables make no difference, but they instantly hear the benefits when they hook them up...who are they going to trust? This is particularly true when the experience of the friends they invite over...or the sales guy, backs them up. The money they spent for cryo treated cables really did make a difference. All their friends heard the improvement as soon as they were plugged in.

The last several years has been revelatory for me. Every day we are faced with new examples of how people can see the same thing...and come away with vastly different conclusions. The Meme on the National Mall being the most recent example.

What really amazes me is that civilization has made it this far. Most of my life I assumed that human minds were tools of logic. Instead, we are programmed for making quick decisions and then winning arguments to back them up. Cables may be the least of our worries.
 

solderdude

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(From Paul's website see link above)
If our goal is to understand why we hear a difference then it’s incumbent on us to dig deeper. Our hypothesis didn’t give us the results we were looking for. Our ears detect a difference our meters and methods fail to uncover. The proper conclusion is not to stop there but to march forward until it can be satisfactorily explained.

Or simply accept the most logical explanation... but I applaud those who won't stop and keep (eternally) trying to find another plausible conclusion.
Maybe someone finally discovers the long awaited 'unknown signal' for which we haven't invented a measurement method yet.


Garth Powell of Audioquest proposed a method that just might have some answers. Since the change we hear comes out of the loudspeakers and affects the entire audio chain, it’s only logical we measure the entire chain to seek differences. This would involve using a microphone to capture the output of the system and then comparing the recorded files to find the differences. It’s essentially the same test I have done any number of times with the microphone in my iPhone which more than adequately picks up differences.

Yes, one can suggest all day long but why haven't they yet... seems to be the most logical step for a cable manufacturer to prove this once and for all and definitive.
I can make a guess as to why this is never tested this way.
Where are the iphone results ?
Or the 'more official' tests ? Afterall he did it so many times and even his phone could pick it up (probably in a slightly different position), yet no evidence anywhere.

I haven’t the time nor the interest in performing these tests with any scientific rigor, but perhaps someone else wants to grab the flag and climb the mountain. It would have to be performed on a system where we actually do hear a difference.

Proving what we already know might be valuable to someone.

Just not me.

It looks like he KNOWS he is talking crap and this way you can't prove a thing so makes a quick and not explained escape that he won't.
If he REALLY thought it was that easy he could have already shown it in one of his vids.
 
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svart-hvitt

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I think McGowan has no interest in psychology as an academic discipline. So he doesn’t ask if differences are real (physics) or perceived by the complex which is man.

He has no interest in the scientific method either.

No wonder he has a large group of followers.
 

GGroch

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OK, but.

Paul and Garth Powell seem to be suggesting an objective scientific test that uses measurement to determine whether cables make a difference.

It appears to be similar to Ethan's null tester in concept, except that a loudspeaker's output is measured instead of the cable's output.
If correctly set up, this test should be a valid measurable objective test...right?

Paul goes further saying he regularly does this...and huge differences are measurable...even using the mic on his I-Phone.

Garth Powell did a sighted/subjective version of this test at CES last year "proving" that AC power cords impact sound....using a camcorder mic as the recording device. Analog Planet's Michael Fremer writes: "The differences were critical and easily heard by all in attendance. It was no more "conformational bias" than would be showing a color and black and white photo and asking which was which."

So, what slight of hand is being used here? And, how could an objective scientifically valid test measuring the differences in a signal recorded from speaker outputs be made?
 

solderdude

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OK, but.

Paul and Garth Powell seem to be suggesting an objective scientific test that uses measurement to determine whether cables make a difference.

It appears to be similar to Ethan's null tester in concept, except that a loudspeaker's output is measured instead of the cable's output.
If correctly set up, this test should be a valid measurable objective test...right?

Paul goes further saying he regularly does this...and huge differences are measurable...even using the mic on his I-Phone.

Garth Powell did a sighted/subjective version of this test at CES last year "proving" that AC power cords impact sound....using a camcorder mic as the recording device. Analog Planet's Michael Fremer writes: "The differences were critical and easily heard by all in attendance. It was no more "conformational bias" than would be showing a color and black and white photo and asking which was which."

So, what slight of hand is being used here? And, how could an objective scientifically valid test measuring the differences in a signal recorded from speaker outputs be made?

The problem with this test is that if the mic. even moves an inch the measurements will differ yet have nothing to do with any cable but with acoustics.
It also isn't a null test by a long shot.

When someone repeats this test where only an interlink is changed in an anechoic room with fixed microphone and speakers settings and the anechoic chamber untouched it becomes a valid test.
It will show no differences.

When this is done with loudspeaker cables small differences are measurable (as they will also be at the end of a cable and with null testing) depending on the resistance of the cable.

The power cable test is already debunked on this site. (I believe this is what you meant).
 
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