Ethan Winer Builds a Wire Null Tester

[invaderzim]

We know it is abundantly easy to have people perceive a difference where there is none entering their ear.

We know it is abundantly hard for the sound that enters one's ear to be different based on cable differences.

What should a reasonable person conclude?

Magic?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Let's not forget that the human brain is infinitely more complex in interpreting sound waves than any scientific device ever will be.
It 'decodes' such waves to convey emotion,excitement,create a 'sound stage', differentiate between instruments etc.
This might start to explain why changing cables etc can lead to changes in sound character perceived,which may not be measurable (yet)...

Perhaps but that is completely irrelevant in the case of audio equipment. the only thing joining the kit to each other and the speakers is the cable. If the cable has no influence on the audio signal being passed along it it will have no effect on what comes out of the speaker, that will remain exactly the same. So however our brains or ears work is irrelevant, what we are listening to will not have changed so any apparent change we think we hear must be imagined, ie placebo or expectation effects.

 

[Pluto]

Has the point of thread rather been lost with everybody going around the usual loop ad nauseam? Ethan's little box appears to demonstrate, with minimal room for doubt, that there is no difference between the signal at either end of a piece of wire.

I strongly believe that it's now down to those who believe otherwise, either

1. to come up with a reasonable scientific argument to explain their observations
2. to admit that they are, most probably, mistaken
3. to admit that anyone, including themselves, who has spent more than a few $ on an audio cable has probably been duped

Anyone who does two of the three above will sleep easier and their lives will suddenly seem less burdened and the mist will slowly clear

 

[SIY]

You missed one:

4. Present validated and replicable double blind testing results using engineered sources and receivers.

And that one alone would be sufficient.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

Who do you think Ethan's target audience is/was with this demonstration???

 

[tmtomh]

Who do you think Ethan's target audience is/was with this demonstration???

People capable of understanding and acting on logic and evidence.

 

[JJB70]

In a sense the question of who Ethan's target audience is brings us back to confirmation bias. People tend to gravitate to news channels and sources of information which confirm that their pre-existing views are "right". I'm guessing most users of this board are rational people with a faith in engineering and science, a healthy scepticism of subjectivist audio reviewers and a belief in the value of measurement (not that I'm criticising that, it's why I like it here). There are plenty of other sites and magazines that attract people precisely because they offer a re-assuring confirmation on the truth of golden eared subjectivism and talk about rhythm, pace, slam, being moved two rows fwd etc (booo!!!!). Both are good examples of confirmation bias. Unfortunately the world is full of people living in parallel pathways agreeing with eachother and all shouting at a wall. Unfortunately there is much less exchange of views between these streams. In the world of audio it's basically irrelevant (it's a hobby, nobody "needs" a hi-fi in the true sense and unless people are seriously unbalanced there are plenty of more important things in life). Where this becomes a much bigger problem is on genuinely important stuff as people aren't interested in debate, two way exchange of views, rational investigation etc as they'd rather just listen to somebody agree with them and tell them everything they're saying is right.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

People capable of understanding and acting on logic and evidence.

Oh, I don't think so. Those folks would already be on board and not need any sort of evidence/convincing.

I think the primary folks Ethan is aiming at are cable afficionado's (for lack of a better term) who are likely never convincible and who he's poking in the eye with this exercise. They raise their eyebrows and enlist somebody like Paul McGowan into the fray, and job done.

 

[GGroch]

Of course Ethan is on this forum and may definitively answer this question himself. When people I disagree with make what seem to be illogical assertions I look 1st for a profit motive (ie Paul McGowan). People I agree with of course are altruistically motivated to find scientific truth.

In viewing his Facebook page, I see Ethan's business is Realtraps...room acoustic treatment. So there could be an indirect profit motive here...money not spent on exotic cable could be spent on acoustic room treatment.

On the other hand, even a small investment in room treatment can make a huge (easily measurable and blind test verifiable) difference in sound. It appears to me Ethan is, like Paul, a passionate audiophile. Where they differ, is Ethan is much more focused on helping people attain the best possible result per dollar spent. Ethan focuses on what matters most.

The motivation for the video I believe was to introduce his null tester. The motivation for building the tester, then challenging Paul to a debate, is to firmly put audio pseudo-science on the defensive. "I believe what I hear" audiophiles are sometimes called subjectivists...but that does not describe Paul McGowan. He frequently uses measurements, tests, and elaborate explanations of his technologies to push his products. He says they are backed by science.

A null tester puts the focus not on theories of which exotic cable designs make most sense...but rather on what is the end result. If your high tech cable in the end tests exactly like a low tech cable...then your theories are bunk. It then puts the responsibility of proving pseudo scientific products impact sound on those promoting them.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Who knows what his audience is? It can of course be several things. A video others can point cable believers to for why there isn't a real difference. Just one bit of evidence among many bits. To hope that some who are on the fence starting out can view it and prevent them wasting money. And to put this up and say to cable espousers, okay why do I get these results and you hear night and day differences?

Cable believers don't want to know the truth. The old adage, "its easier to fool the people than it is to convince them they have been fooled". Trust ears types are mostly afraid to do just that. I've put up test files and gotten only a handful of responses while hundreds (in one case 3800) downloaded the files. Someone was curious, but when they couldn't hear differences weren't willing to vote that way in an online poll. Or to simply say, "I expected to hear differences, but didn't what is going on here?"

Ethan does a good job with his video, and I know I've gotten tired of answering the same old evasive questions over and over with no effect. If nothing else, hey here is this video go watch it, is a real service to others.

 

[Killingbeans]

Of course he's mostly poking at the delusional nutjobs. Who wouldn't fall into the temptation? He's only human after all

But if it has the side effect of enlightening just a single person, who's been floating in the gray zone between superstition and rational thinking, I'd say it's been well worth the effort.

 

[tmtomh]

Oh, I don't think so. Those folks would already be on board and not need any sort of evidence/convincing.

I think the primary folks Ethan is aiming at are cable afficionado's (for lack of a better term) who are likely never convincible and who he's poking in the eye with this exercise. They raise their eyebrows and enlist somebody like Paul McGowan into the fray, and job done.

I get what you are saying here - but I don't know that Winer would go through all the trouble of demonstrating the null test in such detail if he were only interested in poking unpersuadables in the eye. Don't you think he's also addressing an audience of folks interested in this kind of scientific test - specifically the null test as a way to cancel out other factors by directly comparing two cables, therefore taking other variables out of the equation?

 

[March Audio]

I think its important to remember that we are among a few that make noise on forums. There are cable believers and non believers, both can be noisy . However the vast majority of forum/content consumption is actually by people who dont post. So there are plenty of people out there who will be educated by Ethans output and go on to make informed decisions about cables.

BTW, I couldnt resist taking this oportunity to mention I will be putting a range of cables on my website soon . All sensible stuff at sensible prices. Amphenol Connectors, any type to any type, any length with Canare or Belden Cable.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

I get what you are saying here - but I don't know that Winer would go through all the trouble of demonstrating the null test in such detail if he were only interested in poking unpersuadables in the eye. Don't you think he's also addressing an audience of folks interested in this kind of scientific test - specifically the null test as a way to cancel out other factors by directly comparing two cables, therefore taking other variables out of the equation?

Yeah, I don't disagree, but how big a percentage of people is that (gray area) between the two groups? (I guess we could call them cable-agnostic's, for lack of a better term.)
These are folks that are pretty squishy in their beliefs and/or their willingness to open the wallet considerably for this type of "component."

The fact of the matter is, this silly market has been created and became well established since there wasn't enough objective discussion in the early days to throttle it in. Now we have this portion of the audiophile market that exists as a high profit center for retailers. There's a reason so many people are selling cables.

Anyways, my original question was sort of rhetorical.

Dave.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I think its important to remember that we are among a few that make noise on forums. There are cable believers and non believers, both can be noisy . However the vast majority of forum/content consumption is actually by people who dont post. So there are plenty of people out there who will be educated by Ethans output and go on to make informed decisions about cables.

BTW, I couldnt resist taking this oportunity to mention I will be putting a range of cables on my website soon . All sensible stuff at sensible prices. Amphenol Connectors, any type to any type, any length with Canare or Belden Cable.

View attachment 20454

Who makes the terminations, and by which means?

 

[March Audio]

Me, solder.

 

[solderdude]

Nope... Me solder

 

[March Audio]

Im Spartacus

 

[restorer-john]

Me, solder.

I used the all red and all white ones for a bit, but decided they added too much gloss to the sound, went for the subtle red and white boot over the matte pearl-silver- much smoother presentation. I see you are adding a woven tech-flex cover, I thought it might make the sound a bit scratchy.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/short-rca-interconnects.2479/

 

[March Audio]

I used the all red and all white ones for a bit, but decided they added too much gloss to the sound, went for the subtle red and white boot over the matte pearl-silver- much smoother presentation. I see you are adding a woven tech-flex cover, I thought it might make the sound a bit scratchy.

View attachment 20459

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/short-rca-interconnects.2479/

It's simply a contradiction in terms to sell a hifi cable without braid these days.

Everyone knows without it you will get all sorts of problems with soundstage and RF interference........