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Ethan Winer Builds a Wire Null Tester

RayDunzl

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Am I missing something?

From my DAC manual:

1546837998288.png


I don't think they'e expecting you to use fat cables... Just the usual, but longer...
 

invaderzim

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This is even more dismaying - I think you're right. They really do think they hear a difference!

And I've seen many of them say that if you think you hear a difference then that is all that matters.

But there is expense involved with simply thinking one hears a difference with a purchase. Sometimes they will wave it off because it is such a small amount of money being spent for the imagined gain. But it is a slow chipping away at people's critical thinking abilities. If putting a doorstop on a DAC can improve the sound then anything and everything else is possible and there are price levels available for all ranges of imagined upgrades. It is a slippery slope and that first imagined upgrade makes a great sled.
 

invaderzim

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I think the debate would go something like this

Ethan: "facts, figures, tests, science"
Paul: "feelings, emotion"
Ethan: "numbers"
Paul: "numbers don't show what I hear"
Ethan: "numbers show everything"
Paul: "then why do I hear something?"
Ethan: "because you want to"
Paul: "since I'm hearing it then it exists"
Ethan: "no, all these facts and figures clearly show it doesn't"
Paul: "I don't care, I can feel it"

Fans on each side "Yeah! We won!"
 

RayDunzl

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JJB70

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This whole argument stems from three characteristics which are common in the world of high end audio (and high end wannabes...):

1. An inability to recognise that while musical composition and performance are art forms, designing and manufacturing audio equipment is a scientific and engineering endeavour which is entirely explicable using scientific and technical methodologies such as measurement;

2. People want to believe, it is pointless telling a person who is determined to believe tweako myths that their beliefs are nonsense; and

3. People want to belong to wat they perceive to be an elitist club of composed of people who are blessed with more discernment and insight than the riff raff.

Add it up and you have people that really think that designing audio gear is about golden eared tweako's designing by ear because it's an art, who are desperate to believe all the spin because they're desperate to be accepted and get some sort of satisfaction from knowing they're among the small few who can appreciate fine audio gear. And of course when there is a whole cottage industry of manufacturers and parasitic reviewers that have spent decades creating audiophool myths and conditioning their followers to believe all the nonsense then as commendable as Ethan's efforts are and as much as I support his efforts I also think it's as useful as urinating into the wind in the case of the true believers and those manipulating the gullible to make $$$$$$$$$'s.

However, I give Ethan Winer an 11 out of 10 for his efforts to demystify, educate and show shysters for what they are.
 

svart-hvitt

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But wait... there is more....


I had the most interesting experience regarding this challenge of Ethan Winer. On Norwegian forum Hifisentralen.no (https://www.hifisentralen.no/forume...winer-utforderer-paul-mcgowan-til-debatt.html) I argued that Mcgowan and PS Audio stand for alternative facts, non-science (cfr. for example PS Audio power cables and a noise harvester). Then out of the blue comes one of the esteemed veterans of said site, a professional musician who is also a distinguished user expert and friend of Audiolense. And he claims both of them - Winer and McGowan - are both fools, incompetent jokers. Winer is simply trying to make a quick buck by implicitly marketing his products (he went on to say that Winer doesn't understand acoustics and the products he's selling).

I tried to argue that Winer is maybe (?) best known for his AES myth busting workshop, which seems to make him a whiter hat in my book, as opposed to black hat power cable and AC noise harvesting product pushers.

So it strikes me how lost we are in 2019. A professional experienced musician, who has spent thousands of hours to try and understand audio, is not able to tell a white hat from a black hat. Interesting, isn't it?

Fake news has become a term in the past few years. But the phenomenon has always been there, though it's as important as ever to be able to distinguish between trustworthy and dubious sources.

I am not in a position to go through all the videos and comments made by either Winer or McGowan, so I don't know them very well, but it takes me 30 seconds to get the idea that one is peddling alternative facts while the other has a background as a myth buster - for which he has been attacked on numerous occasions. So my interesting experience is that this line of thought brought me into a minority position at the aforementioned site. Fascinating, isn't it?
 

tomelex

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As is usual in things like this (not specifically this though) is there are conditions that have to be met.

I will give just one simple example, two amplifiers, that measure the same on a test resistor, and you can measure everything you want and everyway you want, spectrum, time delay, null, everything, does not mean that when you connect a reactive load to them that they will handle that load the same way.

So, yes if you measure both amps with that same reactive load in all the ways possible, then yes, if the measurements come out all the same or far enough below audibility that they can be assumed to be "the same" then yes, those two amps will sound the same.

This is a critical point, the test must involve the same load, whether it be pre-amp or power amp or even comparing two channels of the same stereo device. Or, speaker cables or interconnects. It is system, and must be tested within the system, not in isolation with a resistive load only. IF you test with a resistive load only all you can say is the devices are the same when playing into a resistive load.

There are no unknown measurements of simple audio gear, there is nothing unmeasurable about an audio signal, there is nothing the ear can hear better than proper electrical tests can reveal.
 

solderdude

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I agree with Ethan Winer (no surprise there) but understand Paul's standpoint.
Of course I won't defend Paul's standpoint as it is bollocks to begin with.

When one is convinced (like many audiophiles seem to be) that 'we' cannot measure everything and there are aspects 'we' do not know of nor know how to measure then it is logical to come to the conclusion that there 'must be' a signal, unknown, and (yet ?) unmeasurable that also travels along and also influences the sound.
When you believe that it is easy to say (with dry eyes and conviction) that something can sound different even though it measures the same.
An assumption based on religion as in; there is more to life than what we can observe and quantify.

Such a debate can never end well and proponents can never see eye to eye. Each have their own audiences. Yin and Yang ... etc.

Kuddo's to Ethan for daring Paul.
I think Paul knows he can't win this when called upon his abilities to 'prove' this in controlled tests.
His livelihood depends on sales which depend on audio religion alike beliefs.
 
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amirm

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The amazing gift the people like Paul have is that they are able to design functionality without knowing what that functionality is! Better yet, they can manufacture it without knowing how to test that it is there before they ship the product....
 

March Audio

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The amazing gift the people like Paul have is that they are able to design functionality without knowing what that functionality is! Better yet, they can manufacture it without knowing how to test that it is there before they ship the product....
Well that presumes of course that he isnt bullshitting for marketing purposes. Does he actually believe or is he selling a story?
 
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amirm

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Well that presumes of course that he isnt bullshitting for marketing purposes. Does he actually believe or is he selling a story?
It is a mix of both I am sure. He must have had incidents of thinking some tweak is in the system doing something, only to find out the tweak was not there, powered on, etc. And then again performing uncontrolled tests and believing in things that don't work as working.
 

GGroch

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Well that presumes of course that he isn't bullshitting for marketing purposes. Does he actually believe or is he selling a story?

Yes! This was my 1st question after seeing the Winer challenge. The answer would impact the efficacy of any debate.

All of us are ignorant about some topics, in my case many topics, so if Paul is ignorant, I cannot fault him. A debate between Ethan and an ignorant person could be enlightening to the audience and to that person.

BUT, Paul represents himself as an expert on audio and electronic design...so the issue goes beyond ignorance. What does a debate look like when your opponent is a quack or a charlatan?

The dictionary defines a "quack" as an "ignorant, misinformed, or dishonest practitioner". That seems apt.
Whereas, a "charlatan" (a subset of quacks) is "a person who falsely pretends to know or be something in order to deceive people."

A quack may espouse "alternative facts" not knowing they are false.
A charlatan does so with full knowledge of their falsehood.

Charlatans, when challenged will defend, obfuscate, attack. As we have seen recently in public affairs, charlatan's can be entertaining to debate, but little of value gets accomplished.
 

SIY

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As we have seen since the dawn of time in public affairs, charlatans can be entertaining to debate, but little of value gets accomplished.

FTFY. :D

And the tactics are similar- false dichotomies, moving the goalposts, straw men, Gish gallops...
 

Dimitrov

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I agree with Ethan Winer (no surprise there) but understand Paul's standpoint.
Of course I won't defend Paul's standpoint as it is bollocks to begin with.

When one is convinced (like many audiophiles seem to be) that 'we' cannot measure everything and there are aspects 'we' do not know of nor know how to measure then it is logical to come to the conclusion that there 'must be' a signal, unknown, and (yet ?) unmeasurable that also travels along and also influences the sound.
When you believe that it is easy to say (with dry eyes and conviction) that something can sound different even though it measures the same.
An assumption based on religion as in; there is more to life than what we can observe and quantify.

Such a debate can never end well and proponents can never see eye to eye. Each have their own audiences. Yin and Yang ... etc.

Kuddo's to Ethan for daring Paul.
I think Paul knows he can't win this when called upon his abilities to 'prove' this in controlled tests.
His livelihood depends on sales which depend on audio religion alike beliefs.

I would have to say that I am inclined to side with Paul McGowan who expresses a more rational and balanced point of view. He allows for the possibility that there are things beyond our understanding at this point in time, that we cannot measure and don't even know to look for. Any sane, rational and balanced thinker would concur.

Ethan Winer on the other hand has fallen into the trap of thinking that science has all the answers and that everything is measurable. How do you measure something if you don't even know that it exists and are too dogmatic in your view to even consider the possibility of it's existence.
 

RayDunzl

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Ethan Winer on the other hand has fallen into the trap of thinking that science has all the answers

Science has more answers than any other discipline I can think of at the moment.

How do you measure something if you don't even know that it exists

How do you measure something somebody might just be imagining?
 

solderdude

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I would have to say that I am inclined to side with Paul McGowan who expresses a more rational and balanced point of view. He allows for the possibility that there are things beyond our understanding at this point in time, that we cannot measure and don't even know to look for. Any sane, rational and balanced thinker would concur.

I would re-define your last sentence:
Some tinkerers would concur.
Any rational and balanced engineer would certainly not.

Can I ask where the idea comes from that:
A: There is an 'undiscovered' signal that somehow has the same properties as electrical currents/voltages but remains illusive ?

B: What is flawed about the null test ?
Even Paul admits the test is infallible and then proceeds to say ... weeeellllll and murmers about NON related issues and theorizes about those without a shred of evidence and bases it on anecdotal reports.

How do you measure something if you don't even know that it exists and are too dogmatic in your view to even consider the possibility of it's existence.

Well you can't.

How does one prove there somethin exists we don't have any evidence of nor have any means of measuring it ?
This must be proven before one can investigate.
Those CLAIMING they can hear differences must do so under controled and blind conditions that these differences exist without a shadow of a doubt.
So far no one succeeded in showing those perceived differences are really there. Those that still make the claim should be able to provide enough evidence of it.

Isn't the burdon of delivering proof up to the one making claims ?
It seems that those claiming 'there MUST be something there cause my ears and the ears of <insert names> also hear it' and in their hearts KNOW it exists should be the ones looking for it and not simply claim 'Oh.. these engineers are so closed minded'.
 
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andreasmaaan

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I would have to say that I am inclined to side with Paul McGowan who expresses a more rational and balanced point of view. He allows for the possibility that there are things beyond our understanding at this point in time, that we cannot measure and don't even know to look for. Any sane, rational and balanced thinker would concur.

Ethan Winer on the other hand has fallen into the trap of thinking that science has all the answers and that everything is measurable. How do you measure something if you don't even know that it exists and are too dogmatic in your view to even consider the possibility of it's existence.

What is passing through those wires that is not electrical but that nevertheless audibly affects the sound?

Why do the differences that people hear between wires disappear when people don't know which wires they are listening to?
 

SIY

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The idea that because we don’t know everything, we don’t know anything is a useful one for hucksters.

This is a tactic eloquently described by Carl Sagan in his essay The Dragon in My Garage.
 
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