"ESSentielle" DIY Floor Speakers with ESS Heil AMT3, based on MHP project.

[daniboun]

I have a couple of ESS Great Heils and this is the sort of project I was looking at for them. My approach was to use the "bass module" from the Bordeaux kit but I was worried about the crossover point with the Dayton RS225s. The doubt caused me to pause and then never I looped back.

Great project!

Thnks I think the Heil AMTs deserve better than the Dayton RS225s... You have to keep in mind that the Heil AMTs are fast transducers and you really need Woofers capable of harmonizing and following...

The Dayton measures well, in my humble opinion, you have to crossover between 1500HZ and 1700HZ

What version of AMT do you have?
What do you mean by "Bordeaux" kit ?

check the Dayton RS225s measurements here :

Dayton Audio RS225

8" Woofer, 80W, 91dB, 33Hz

www.loudspeakerdatabase.com

 

[Dilliw]

Bordeaux Loudspeaker Kit | Meniscus Audio

The Bordeaux Speaker kit by Curt Campbell and Jim Holtz Jim keeps saying that this is the last speaker build, but it seems they keep on coming. His latest collaboration with Curt Campbell gives the

meniscusaudio.com

 

[Jim Taylor]

You have to keep in mind that the Heil AMTs are fast transducers and you really need Woofers capable of harmonizing and following...

This is a baseless audiophool myth.

Any treble unit, regardless of design, does one of three things. Ideally, it reproduces the signal it is given. If it does this, then it is not "slow" and it not "fast", it is accurate. It may be capable of reproducing a 50kHz wave, but that is irrelevant. If the signals fed to it are all less than 20kHz, then all that matters is that it reproduces the signal it is given, no more and no less.
And that description ("no more and no less") brings up two other descriptions of the transducer. One is that it does NOT reproduce the signal it is given. The other is that it reproduces the signal and ADDS INFORMATION of its own. This is called distortion.

The same goes for woofers. They either accurately reproduce the signals they are given, or they don't, or they add distortion. A low frequency driver is not in a position where it needs to "follow" a high frequency driver. In reality, it's the other way around; if a woofer is sent a signal, filtered by the crossover, that has higher-frequency overtones, the treble unit needs to follow the higher-frequency overtones of the woofer's reproduction of the fundamentals.

In either case, tests and measurements will show the behavior of both the low-frequency drivers and the high-frequency drivers, as well as the behavior of both working under the effect of the crossover.

Jim

 

[Mr. Widget]

This is a baseless audiophool myth.

There are many ways to share your reasonably accurate information without being so brash.

 

[daniboun]

Bordeaux Loudspeaker Kit | Meniscus Audio

The Bordeaux Speaker kit by Curt Campbell and Jim Holtz Jim keeps saying that this is the last speaker build, but it seems they keep on coming. His latest collaboration with Curt Campbell gives the

meniscusaudio.com

Thanks for the link. This kit Seems interesting.
Why don't you get the ADS kit instead if you want to move towards an AMT project?


On the other hand, if you are looking for something similar to the "Bordeaux kit", I strongly recommend these speakers, based on two Accuton Woofers and an excellent Mundorf AMT with a very fair price ! The high end crossover is very well made ) I found it on the second-hand market at €1400 a pair (2800€ original price)

KIT Keramix 2 Mk.2 supreme – Lautsprecherbausatz - Pure Dynamics

High-End Lautsprecherbausatz Keramix 2 mit zwei Accution Bässen und Pure Dynamics AMT und höchstwertigen Mundorf Bauteilen, ohne Gehäuse, Paarpreis.

www.puredynamics.com

 

[daniboun]

This is a baseless audiophool myth.

Any treble unit, regardless of design, does one of three things. Ideally, it reproduces the signal it is given. If it does this, then it is not "slow" and it not "fast", it is accurate. It may be capable of reproducing a 50kHz wave, but that is irrelevant. If the signals fed to it are all less than 20kHz, then all that matters is that it reproduces the signal it is given, no more and no less.
And that description ("no more and no less") brings up two other descriptions of the transducer. One is that it does NOT reproduce the signal it is given. The other is that it reproduces the signal and ADDS INFORMATION of its own. This is called distortion.

The same goes for woofers. They either accurately reproduce the signals they are given, or they don't, or they add distortion. A low frequency driver is not in a position where it needs to "follow" a high frequency driver. In reality, it's the other way around; if a woofer is sent a signal, filtered by the crossover, that has higher-frequency overtones, the treble unit needs to follow the higher-frequency overtones of the woofer's reproduction of the fundamentals.

In either case, tests and measurements will show the behavior of both the low-frequency drivers and the high-frequency drivers, as well as the behavior of both working under the effect of the crossover.

Jim

Thanks for the clarification.
I imagine that theoretically, you are right. However, you can not combine the Heil AMT with any Woofers and it is more summarily what I should have said)

 

[ChargedCapacitor]

Thanks for the clarification.
I imagine that theoretically, you are right. However, you can not combine the Heil AMT with any Woofers and it is more summarily what I should have said)

Speed has nothing to do with how you combine drivers. If you are using passive crossover parts, then there are drivers that will better match up with a given tweeter. However, with DSP crossovers, pretty much any driver can be crossed with any tweeter, given each driver has enough headroom to meet proper crossover points (directivity notwithstanding).

There are lots of things to consider when building speakers, and what you want out of your speaker will be the primary driver of what parts you choose to build it with.

 

[Dilliw]

Thanks for the link. This kit Seems interesting.
Why don't you get the ADS kit instead if you want to move towards an AMT project?

I was going down the road of the Bordeaux for the bass module as the design is public (including the CAD drawings) and he has the bass module already separated with a fairly simple ported design. In other words I'm pretty sure that I can build it! Those Daytons are well known for being very low distortion and also have an SPL closer to the Heils. Jim has used them for several of his designs.

I've also seen this two way with the AMT Great Heil and the Visiton AL200:

Heil Heaven

 

[ctrl]

A very beautifully built project!




When building this kit, you should make sure that the AMT is flat with the baffle or that the step around the tweeter is at least provided with an angled bevel. Otherwise, the additional edge diffraction will cause an even more unsteady frequency response in the high frequency range.

 

[daniboun]

Thanks for the feedback...not sure what project you're talking about ? ADS project 1 . ADS Project 2 or the Keramix speakers ?
To give you some food for thought. The ADS 2 project fixed some notable flaws of the first project.
On the ADS 2 project, the ESS dipole transducer is contained in a Wood cabinet which rests on the original ESS fixings (anti-vibration plate) In essence, a dipole transducer cannot be contained in a closed box...

For the woofers, the Satori Textreme are mounted, in the rules of the art in a wooden cabinet, with two independent volumes ) It is not an open Baffle )))
As already explained, the Bass reflex load is based on the original ADS scheme, with a downfiring type event with the appropriate tuning.

 

[daniboun]

When building this kit, you should make sure that the AMT is flat with the baffle or that the step around the tweeter is at least provided with an angled bevel. Otherwise, the additional edge diffraction will cause an even more unsteady frequency response in the high frequency range.

I did not designed the Keramix kit )) This is not a diy kit... this is a German brand )

 

[ctrl]

For the woofers, the Satori Textreme are mounted, in the rules of the art in a wooden cabinet, with two independent volumes ) It is not an open Baffle )))
As already explained, the Bass reflex load is based on the original ADS scheme, with a downfiring type event with the appropriate tuning.

Thanks for the clarification, will change my post.

The ADS 2 project fixed some notable flaws of the first project....On the ADS 2 project, the ESS dipole transducer is contained in a Wood cabinet which rests on the original ESS fixings (anti-vibration plate) In essence, a dipole transducer cannot be contained in a closed box...

Sure it can. Each woofer is a dipole radiator and in most AMT tweeters the rear radiation is attenuated and mounted in a sealed enclosure

The moment the depth of the tweeter cabinet is greater than the depth of the AMT, you will get resonances. Which will occur in your ADS1 project or is the tweeter cabinet filled with damping material?

And is this the ADS2 AMT cabinet?

 

[daniboun]

Thanks for the clarification, will change my post.



Sure it can. Each woofer is a dipole radiator and in most AMT tweeters the rear radiation is attenuated and mounted in a sealed enclosure

The moment the depth of the tweeter cabinet is greater than the depth of the AMT, you will get resonances. Which will occur in your ADS1 project or is the tweeter cabinet filled with damping material?


And is this the ADS2 AMT cabinet?

Thanks for your reply )
In all projects involving the Heil ESS AMT 2/3, everyone recommends a mounting in a not sealed enclosure... I only refer to the Heil ESS AMT Tweeter. Regarding other dipole transducers, I don't know ) I misspoke in my previous post. ))))


Check here, the best Project involving the ESS AMT 2 : http://www.audiotechno.fr/html/jalucine.htm > here everything has been calculated according to the rules of the art (
In the ADS1 project I was inspired by the JALUCINE project for the assembly of the ESS AMT 3)
I realized that by positioning the ESS AMT higher, it projected differently and I found more consistency in listening with this positioning above the speaker.

To answer you :
I use an acoustic damper in the ADS1 project (Monacor acoustic wool )
Yes for the ADS2 : I just increased the diameter of the opening, the one made at the start was too small.

 

[thaddeussmith]

Lots of ways to play with this driver, which is super cool. mine are stacked and wired in series, with some custom "wings" so I can cross them over with bass bins from a pair of La Scalas I've modified. Danley TH-SPUD clones in the background. running all as 3-way stereo. (everything needs a fresh paint job)

 

[daniboun]

Lots of ways to play with this driver, which is super cool. mine are stacked and wired in series, with some custom "wings" so I can cross them over with bass bins from a pair of La Scalas I've modified. Danley TH-SPUD clones in the background. running all as 3-way stereo. (everything needs a fresh paint job)

Very nice project ! I agree with your comments ) We can really play many projects with these ESS

 

[Mr. Widget]

Lots of ways to play with this driver, which is super cool. mine are stacked and wired in series, with some custom "wings" so I can cross them over with bass bins from a pair of La Scalas I've modified. Danley TH-SPUD clones in the background. running all as 3-way stereo. (everything needs a fresh paint job)

When I bought my pair and saw how they mount I also considered stacking them as they can be so easily stacked with longer all thread. Have you taken measurements? I wonder how your low end was impacted by simply doubling the line height and then how it was impacted by adding the wings?

For the La Scala bottom end you really need to get down to 400 Hz... are you covering ~400Hz all the way up with the AMTs? Pretty impressive.

 

[thaddeussmith]

When I bought my pair and saw how they mount I also considered stacking them as they can be so easily stacked with longer all thread. Have you taken measurements? I wonder how your low end was impacted by simply doubling the line height and then how it was impacted by adding the wings?

For the La Scala bottom end you really need to get down to 400 Hz... are you covering ~400Hz all the way up with the AMTs? Pretty impressive.

Yup, I'm running a Yamaha SP2060 for my crossover and EQ, and standing on the shoulders of some other over at the Klipsch forum who came up with this combo's potential. Stacked and with the wing "horns" they can be crossed at about 450Hz without any concern, especially when paired with the efficiency of La Scalas, Klipschorns, etc.

https://community.klipsch.com/index...s-amt-1-with-wings-possible-kit-for-heritage/

Here's my project thread when I finally got to the point of taking measurements: https://community.klipsch.com/index...ack-ess-amt-1/&do=findComment&comment=2465686

I moved a few weeks ago and done some basic EQ and level changes, but I need to sort out some additional room treatments. The system is "functional", but the room is still pretty lively.