Erin Reviews Chesky LC1

[Tovarich007]

Has Erin left his site alone recently? I'd rather see the graphs and read a subjective summary rather than trawl through a talky YouTube video review (in my case) laden with ad breaks..

Same as you, I prefer to read graphs and the summary of the reviews on his site than spend too much time looking at the entire videos.
Erin's cool, but I'm old school and happy to be ; as for me, reading is much faster and also better for memorising than video.

 

[Chaconne]

it shows how useless their subjective opinions are to the potential buyers, but if you mean they're lying or dishonest it's an accusation i wouldn't do, we have to apply the principle of charity here which implies to not explain someone's behaviour with dishonesty if you can explain it with incompetence or stupidity.
Not to mention maybe the room was treated well and they were using DSP. So maybe they even did sound great, but their advice isn't worth sh*t really indeed.
By the way I'd also underline the fact that Chesky sent a speaker to test, a leap of faith worth respect imho. Now faith vs reality we know how it ends.

By the same token, those in the subjectivist camp who praised the speaker might well say that all this just shows how useless measurements are!

 

[dfuller]

You know what this reminds me of. The Wilson Audio TuneTot also has horrible frequency response with a hump at 100hz.

Wilson Audio TuneTot Review (high-end bookshelf speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Wilson Audio TuneTot stand-mount/bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs around US $10,000 (varies due to color). I am not a fan of the way the front looks without the grill. The sides though sport probably the best...

www.audiosciencereview.com

That one's just the port being the straight up wrong tuning. It sims out pretty much exactly if you just give it a 100hz tuning with a ~13-15L box volume.

 

[JD_Spoon]

Hi, I'm the unnamed buyer who bought those LC-1s and sent them to Erin for testing. Why? A couple of reasons. First, to my hearing (which is admittedly not only subjective, but demonstrably damaged to the point of being classified as moderately impaired) , they sounded good enough during the demo that I was willing and able to take a chance on them, since their cost isn't disruptive to me. Second, data is data, and the more data we have on speakers that are out there, the more people can make informed decisions about where to spend their money. I know he's got some other stuff in the works, and I hope a young man's ego isn't too damaged by an honest and objective critique of his work. These are definitely in need of design corrections to solve their fundamental problems. Still, hopefully, he will take that and incorporate it into a future product revision and any future products he develops.

 

[Karmacoma]

Hi, I'm the unnamed buyer who bought those LC-1s and sent them to Erin for testing.

That's a good occasion to thank you very much for doing so. You're the prime reason why we have some data to talk about a design a lot of us were curious about.

 

[Grotti]

I saw Erin's review last night: it's a horrible measuring speaker. Erin stated, that he contacted Mr. Chesky jr. and that their measurements are matching which leads to the conclusion, that Mr. Chesky has no clue or he designed the speaker as it is on purpose. He seems to rely on his marketing to sell them. I wonder if his 3D- printers are too small to print a larger more appropriate enclosure.

Thank you for sending it to Erin, @JD_Spoon !

 

[Bruce Morgen]

That's a good occasion to thank you very much for doing so. You're the prime reason why we have some data to talk about a design a lot of us were curious about.

Amen to that!

 

[TheAVInsider]

I listened to the speakers myself at Axpona. I looked them over. All I'm saying here is that what I was MOST excited about was that a 17 year old kid was the designer and builder of these speakers. I didn't care at all about the product. I was just happy anyone that age gave a rats A** about Hi-Fi audio enough to apply himself enough to actually produce something. If he got this one wrong, oh well. I'll be there encouraging him to learn from this setback, and come back swinging even harder.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Same as you, I prefer to read graphs and the summary of the reviews on his site than spend too much time looking at the entire videos.
Erin's cool, but I'm old school and happy to be ; as for me, reading is much faster and also better for memorising than video.

I too prefer to read, for speed and comprehension. In the case of videos, I just FF and pause the video and look at the measurements. If I want more, 2x speed with captions for some details.

These speakers do have a look, and I am sure many will like what they hear. But this...

i talked to him at Florida show. while he has knowledge to make stuff he seemed a bit inexperienced but determined.

... is is something to keep in mind. Young but connected to the industry, probably listened to a lot of suggestions, did something and brought it to market. That is something! Even major brands, with all their history and resources, produce some clunkers. Usually not this clunky, but some.

The key is what happens next. What feedback gets used next time, what feedback gets ignored? If feedback leads to improvement, then that will be a very good sign. If just the praise is focused on, then we will get more of the same.

So while I never expect to buy this or future products, I am interested to see what happens.

 

[DanielT]

Being compact is not the cause of these flaws if you look at the data. The woofer seems to only have a first order low-pass and no supplementary notch filter, which explains the on-axis irregularity in the 1500-4000Hz region and poor vertical directivity. There is plenty of room inside to add 2-3 more crossover parts to fix that.

The woofer itself is also a poor choice. The GRS 6PR-8 is not well suited to small cabinets with passive radiators. Something like the Dayton DS175-8 would only increase cost by $30 per speaker, maintain similar sensitivity + impedance, yet provides deeper and more linear bass response.

For example, it hits -3dB at 47Hz in a mere 10L cabinet with 45Hz port tune. I also modelled it using the dual DS215 passive radiators. By adding 40 grams to each PR you can hit -3dB at 53Hz and -10dB at 45Hz.

Screenshot

Captured with Lightshot

prnt.sc

Speaking of bass. Adam T5V seem to have about the same as in your example, 3dB at 47Hz in a mere 10L cabinet that is. Maybe the f3 point is slightly higher in frequency, but not much.

And they seem to deliver more bass than expected:

Figuring there would be a lot of interest in knowing how it compares to other speakers, I first paired it with Neumman KH80 DSP. No contest. The little KH80 while sounding smooth, could not remotely produce the same bass and loudness. As a result it sounded quite thin.

I substituted the JBL 305P Mark II. Again, no contest. The 305p had far less bass and could not play nearly as loud.

So I pulled in the Kali LP6. I was quite surprised that the Adam T5V with its smaller woofer was able to once again produce more bass. I think this is due to the shelving of the upper bass in LP6. Regardless, the T5V sounded much warmer and balanced due to more bass energy. And it could play even louder than the LP6!


That at a price of $400 for a pair. Active so no additional amp purchase is needed to get them up and running.

Adam T5V Review (Studio Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Adam T5V Powered Speaker. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me. The T5V costs US $200 each. Much like the rest of Adam speakers, the T5V has a serious look to it: Back panel shows good connectivity and usual...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Tovarich007]

Hi, I'm the unnamed buyer who bought those LC-1s and sent them to Erin for testing. Why? A couple of reasons. First, to my hearing (which is admittedly not only subjective, but demonstrably damaged to the point of being classified as moderately impaired) , they sounded good enough during the demo that I was willing and able to take a chance on them, since their cost isn't disruptive to me. Second, data is data, and the more data we have on speakers that are out there, the more people can make informed decisions about where to spend their money. I know he's got some other stuff in the works, and I hope a young man's ego isn't too damaged by an honest and objective critique of his work. These are definitely in need of design corrections to solve their fundamental problems. Still, hopefully, he will take that and incorporate it into a future product revision and any future products he develops.

Many thanks for having sent this speakers for review !

In show conditions and more generally in quick listening sessions, especially on modern rock/pop/hip hop music, its easy to find a speaker rather good sounding when they have a uneven flattering frequency response in an untreated room, which is somehow the case for this small Chesky.

All in all, I don't put the blame on Chesky Junior for the relatively mediocre performance and built qualty. It's an experience for him, and a lot of mediocre performances have been measured here and there, sometimes from far more expensive speakers than this one.
I hope too his next one will be better, the basic concept was pretty interesting, the realisation not.

The main problem is what I wrote about above : if he wasn't called Chesky (the son of), probably nobody would have ever heard about this speakers.
But, that's hifi audiophiles little circles and networks, you know. Complacent friends and pros push a product, which actually doesn't deserve it, with hyperbolic comments, the doors of the audio shows are opened for this young guy, and the buzz and hype are done.

 

[dfuller]

In show conditions and more generally in quick listening sessions, especially on modern rock/pop/hip hop music, its easy to find a speaker rather good sounding when they have a uneven flattering frequency response in an untreated room, which is somehow the case for this small Chesky.

I disagree with this notion - they're typically way denser harmonically and have much more low end than typical "audiophile music".

The typical sparse jazz and documentary style classical recordings are much more forgiving IME.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Designed by a 17-year-old?! The kid certainly knows more about speakers than I did at that age. But I'm not surprised that there's some rough edges to smooth out... OK, quite a few. The next iteration needs a tweeter that has heard of dispersion control (and QC) or one that can be combined with a 3D-printed waveguide, along with a more complex crossover that isn't afraid of cheaping out on parts where prudent. The baffle also needs some bevels or something (why 3D print an enclosure just to give it a flat baffle?), and the woofer TSP vs. volume conflict needs to be addressed somehow.

I'm actually quite impressed by the distortion performance of the cheapie GRS midwoofer. It's much better for electrical nonlinearity than say the Kali LP-6 woofer (which, mind you, is a real stinker in that regard, like their 8"). Perhaps because it's not trying to be clever with voice coil formers and such. (I suspect the Kalis may be using Al voice coil formers, with resulting eddy currents screwing up midrange distortion performance.) By contrast, the relatively high fs (69 Hz nominal, you can buy 3.5" drivers like that), breakup as low as 3 kHz (which really needs a series notch) and modest Xmax are entirely reflecting the driver's price point.

I wouldn't have picked the 6PT-8 for this application either, with an fs as high as 94 Hz it's much more of a midrange than a woofer (and actually quite a good one at that, not the worst choice for some PA tops or the like, or in a big 3-way crossing over to a 15" woofer or equivalent).

 

[Soniclife]

I disagree with this notion - they're typically way denser harmonically and have much more low end than typical "audiophile music".

The typical sparse jazz and documentary style classical recordings are much more forgiving IME.

Exactly, see below for proof.

Critical (Best) Music Tracks for Speaker and Room EQ Testing

I post the list of tracks Harman uses after literally decades of research to detect fidelity of speakers and room Auto Equalizers in another thread but thought it deserves its own thread. I have had the fortunate luck of sitting through a couple of their blind tests and can attest to the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[middlemarch]

Couple of comments:
1- At no point you mention the equipment used, most importantly the amp.
2- You don't do any comparisons with similar speakers.
3- You show frequency response plots with very fine detail - but the band is about 5dB give or take. Just about any speaker measured like that will have that kind of variability. The ear does a lot of averaging, especially in the low frequencies.
4- The bass response you show is also anechoic - but speakers, especially ones with radiation to the sides, will strongly couple to the room. There's a lot of energy reflected, so an on-axis anechoic response (which you don't say but I presume is what you're measuring) is not telling at all what the speaker will sound like in a room. A medium-sized room will enhace the 40Hz-60Hz region.

Miguel

I think you will find the answers to several of your points at Erin’s website. Also, Erin performs his tests using a Kippel, which measures the speaker in 360 degrees using industry standard methods ( hence results are directly comparable to other tests) and reports same per these industry standards. This way we can do apples to apples comparisons with other speakers.

 

[Tovarich007]

I disagree with this notion - they're typically way denser harmonically and have much more low end than typical "audiophile music".

The typical sparse jazz and documentary style classical recordings are much more forgiving IME.

I partially disagree with your answer.

Yes, Rock/pop and so are generally harmincally complex, but certainly not more than a symphonic orchetsra ar an opera or oratorio. And rock/pop are much compressed and their sound is tweeaked in many ways, purposely. I don't juge them artistically, that's often very peasant and well done. I myself like to listen often to rock/pop (I've been a great fan of these musical genres and a member of a (bad) amateur rock band in my teenage.

But, if you want to really have a good idea of a speaker's dynamics, neutrality and rightness of timbre (as for me the three major criterias of what high fidelity really means), you have to listen to good and naturally recorded acoustic music and voices on recordinds that you know well. Believe me, that's much less forgiving than rock/pop.

Of course, you can also listen to rock/pop etc. for your pleasure and to check the long term power ability of a speaker if you play these musics relatively loud. But you can't judge the quality of a system only with these musical genres.

 

[amirm]

Of course, you can also listen to rock/pop etc. for your pleasure and to check the long term power ability of a speaker if you play these musics relatively loud. But you can't judge the quality of a system only with these musical genres.

Of course you can. Just because you have a preference for classical music, doesn't mean that is the right content for testing speakers. The proper content has full spectrum during the whole track if possible. This makes it easier to perform AB testing as it is not dependent on specific segment of the music. And having full spectrum means you can assess that during the whole song. A lot of classical music fails on these front.

 

[Tovarich007]

I'm not an expert like you, far from it, but anyway i don't fully agree with your point.

OK, i can't deny R/Pop are generally more "full spectrum" than acoutsic music, but often fail too on this criteria.

And, if you have compressed music with dynamics that don't excess 4 or 5 dB (I don't exagerate, it's often the case) you can't perceive how a speaker performs in this domain ?

As for serious AB testing, in auditorium or shows, it's too often a pure joke, you know that. If you can set a proper ABX testing, it's another story, but an amateur can't do that often.

It's not a question of personal preference. As I wrote several times, on this forum or elsewhere, I listen to and like many musical genres.
IMO, every musical genre have its own strenghts and weaknesses for subjective tests.

The conclusion : It's more efficient to compare speakers by their full measurements tests than by casual listening, and that's why I like much your work on ASR, and Erin's work too.

 

[DanielT]

I'm actually quite impressed by the distortion performance of the cheapie GRS midwoofer. It's much better for electrical nonlinearity than say the Kali LP-6 woofer (which, mind you, is a real stinker in that regard, like their 8").

Or in relation to price, you can see it like this:

The distortion for the Kali LP-6v2 is far too high (THD of about 1% through almost the entire midrange already at a moderate 86 dB, 1 m). When you push it above background level, it will sound increasingly hazy and a bit compressed.

But then the same person says:

Speakers probably won't be much better than the Kali LP-6v2 for that little money, even though there are a lot of alternatives on the market with similar performance. With woofers for about 5 USD per speaker, you have to put up with some distortion.

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I wouldn't have picked the 6PT-8 for this application either, with an fs as high as 94 Hz it's much more of a midrange than a woofer (and actually quite a good one at that, not the worst choice for some PA tops or the like, or in a big 3-way crossing over to a 15" woofer or equivalent).

That 6PT-8 as a midrange with, as you say, 15" woofer or equivalent, let's say a powerful one, plus some compression driver, there is the potential for a fun high SPL party speaker. Even a speaker with "nice" Hifi sound (good FR not just high SPL) if it is designed/constructed correctly.

Others have considered the 6PT-8 as a midrange, in a three-way design:

I want a cost effective passive 3-way xover to mate GRS 12PT to GRS 6PT plus "whatever" tweeter

the system would be a small (L100 size) reflex with woofer to midrange having good poer handling and hopefully a clear midrange, I'm having a lot of pain issues but wrose, sision issues so cannot see my monitor well (looks washed out to the point that light graphs in hornresp disappear). FWI I...

www.diyaudio.com

 

[Heinrich]

... you have to listen to good and naturally recorded acoustic music and voices on recordinds that you know well. ... But you can't judge the quality of a system only with these musical genres.

This suggestions carries the implication that the recording is a mirror for a 'real' event.

Think of this:
- the sound engineer choses microphone type, position by acquired habit as a matter of taste
- there are many microphones, some stereo, some mono, times more than one for a single instrument
- some pieces of a recording are taken with all musicians, some with the soloist alone
- ... please find more on this on the internet everywhere

- all the audiotracks are mixed together
- the arrangement in stereo / surround is a matter of taste
- the equalizing, needed for the properties of the microphones alone, for the instrument's specifics in every case, is done by taste
- ...

+++ what you ought to hear during playback is a matter of taste
+++ in order to be discriminative the content has to show many judgements by taste, made by the sound engineer, re-evaluated by the audio enthusiast during the audition

This is a weak criterion, but so it is. It works even more with totally synthetic noise. My personal experience confirms.