Ergonomics

[Digby]

Right, I suppose we are all aware that sitting at a desk for long periods isn't good for your health, so what have you done to alleviate the damage?

Have you spent time searching out particular chairs (or do you stand?), desks, mice and keyboards. I'd like to know what your setup is (if you've spent time thinking about ergonomics) and the reasoning behind it.

P.S. I'm not sure this is exactly a fun topic, but where else could I put it....

 

[Digby]

no comments?

here are some of my thoughts -

1. standard desk height seems too high (71cm), maybe I will buy a lower one.
2. I am enjoying using a trackball mouse (trackball is near thumb), it does seem more ergonomic, but it is difficult to adjust so that it moves quickly without overshooting (the cursor wobbles in a way a normal mouse doesn't). Some lack of accuracy seems to be a function of using a trackball, is this correct?
3. I don't think there is such a thing as the one chair (for comfort and long hours). I think I need to switch between an office leather type chair, an ergonomic chair and standing up.
4. Whilst sitting for long hours isn't healthy, I don't think a setup where you can only stand is either.

 

[Axo1989]

no comments?

here are some of my thoughts -

1. standard desk height seems too high (71cm), maybe I will buy a lower one.
2. I am enjoying using a trackball mouse (trackball is near thumb), it does seem more ergonomic, but it is difficult to adjust so that it moves quickly without overshooting (the cursor wobbles in a way a normal mouse doesn't). Some lack of accuracy seems to be a function of using a trackball, is this correct?
3. I don't think there is such a thing as the one chair (for comfort and long hours). I think I need to switch between an office leather type chair, an ergonomic chair and standing up.
4. Whilst sitting for long hours isn't healthy, I don't think a setup where you can only stand is either.

Just noticed this one, mildly surprised there's no discussion.

So I do a mix of field and desk work. The latter sometimes in long/intense stretches for the usual reasons. I've had to adjust both micro and macro ergonomics at different times. I overworked at the desk couple of years back, got into trouble and had to take it all seriously. Luckily I got the home ergonomics sorted just in time for Covid lockdown. It's now two years later.

Originally I shifted mouse from right hand to left hand, when my right wrist needed some time off. Then I added a trackpad on the right and split the load between both hands/arms. Narrow keyboard (no number pad) for symmetry and shorter reach. I use a Mac so trackpad is also desireable/obligatory for gestures. The Mac is VESA-mounted to an ergo arm. I tried an ambidextrous upright mouse to use if necessary (no need to twist the wrist) but it hasn't been lately.

I've used both kneeling chair and recumbent chair over the years but the arrangement I've set up now is a sit/stand/reversible saddle chair made by Flokk (the model is HÅG Capisco which they've been making since before I was born) together with an electric sit/stand desk (variable height plus configurable presets). Basic concept is to allow many and varied positions (standing is good but not all day). The chair is hard to describe so I'll use their gif:

 

[digitalfrost]

no comments?

here are some of my thoughts -

1. standard desk height seems too high (71cm), maybe I will buy a lower one.
2. I am enjoying using a trackball mouse (trackball is near thumb), it does seem more ergonomic, but it is difficult to adjust so that it moves quickly without overshooting (the cursor wobbles in a way a normal mouse doesn't). Some lack of accuracy seems to be a function of using a trackball, is this correct?
3. I don't think there is such a thing as the one chair (for comfort and long hours). I think I need to switch between an office leather type chair, an ergonomic chair and standing up.
4. Whilst sitting for long hours isn't healthy, I don't think a setup where you can only stand is either.

1. I think an electrically height adjustable desk is the gold standard where you can switch between sitting and standing. Even if getting a normal desk I think height adjustability is a must. I am pretty tall but I prefer my desks lower than standard (I cannot put one leg over the other since there's not enough space)

2. I got a vertical mouse which keeps the arms in a more natural position. It takes some getting used to but then it's no problem at all.

3. I bought a Hermann Miller Aeron that I'm happy with. You can find lots of those used for not much money and you can buy replacements parts to repair everything on this chair.

I want to add one thing, that is a height adjustable monitor arm. The amount of flexibility and comfort this gives is insane. And most monitors standard mounts are not good enough IMHO. Also you gain a ton of desk space under the screen.

I've put off buying this for a long time but it's one of the best investments value/money computerwise that I ever made. I will never go back to standard monitor mounts.

 

[Axo1989]

Is that your arm? I certainly agree on the advantages. Incidentally I was thinking to get the Aeron chair but discovered the other one.

Some extra specifics on setup. I use an optional drafting style foot-ring (the same as the picture) so my low desk height preset is 84 cm, the standing height is 91 cm (I'm average female height 165 cm). Sitting flat-footed you'd have a lower desk something like 65-70 cm. With an electric desk you can fine-tune the height, very worth it.

 

[digitalfrost]

Is that your arm? I certainly agree on the advantages.

Pics are not mine, but I have that exact arm. Ergotron LX.

 

[Digby]

How long do you two stand up for? I'm trying the standing thing (using keyboard tray to raise up, not proper adjustable desK) and I'm finding my feet and back don't seem to be a fan of it. My feet seem stuck in the same position, as I concentrate on using the keyboard, mouse and monitor and I'm finding even 5 minutes stretches pretty uncomfortable.

I suppose as you would normally stand, you'd always be moving around a little, but when you are transfixed by a monitor you don't get these micro movements...

 

[Axo1989]

How long do you two stand up for? I'm trying the standing thing (using keyboard tray to raise up, not proper adjustable desK) and I'm finding my feet and back don't seem to be a fan of it. My feet seem stuck in the same position, as I concentrate on using the keyboard, mouse and monitor and I'm finding even 5 minutes stretches pretty uncomfortable.

I suppose as you would normally stand, you'd always be moving around a little, but when you are transfixed by a monitor you don't get these micro movements...

I included details bout my chair to indicate that standing per se wasn't my main goal, rather it was a multitude of working positions. I think this an important point you hit on initially. But in terms of how long I find standing comfortable, definitely more than five minutes, but certainly not the majority of the day. Half an hour or an hour probably?

My work varies between programming and documentation (so, focused on the computer as you mention) but also setting up field kit including multiple iPads, For the latter, standing is much better, as I move around. For the former it depends how I am feeling. Sitting when I need to think, standing for a bit if I'm getting sleepy, etc. It's also somewhat up to our cat. When she's feeling like company she likes to sit on my chair while I work, which is a good cue for me break the computer trance and stand for a bit.

Something else to consider, I found the electric desk height adjustment allowed me to fine-tune the angle of my arms/wrists and so on. It really comes down to the centimetre. It also removes the friction to changing position, just push the button. I'm just adding a slightly different preset for when I use the chair with the back in front of me leaning forward, to get the right height when my elbows rest on the crossbar.

 

[RHO]

Is that your arm? I certainly agree on the advantages. Incidentally I was thinking to get the Aeron chair but discovered the other one.

Some extra specifics on setup. I use an optional drafting style foot-ring (the same as the picture) so my low desk height preset is 84 cm, the standing height is 91 cm (I'm average female height 165 cm). Sitting flat-footed you'd have a lower desk something like 65-70 cm. With an electric desk you can fine-tune the height, very worth it.

View attachment 201965

The position in the picture you show is the only position that has been scientifically proven to be BAD. No other position has been correlated with any pain or health risks. But the one shown is the the only one that has. It's bad for your knees.

The problem is that people sit for too long stints and for too long periods in the same position. Any position is a good position, as long as you feel comfortable and as long as you change position regularly.
The best thing to do is change position regularly and stand up regularly. And when you stand up, move around.

Also, there is no way to counter the bad effects of sitting at a desk 8 hours a day. Being active at the end of the day does not nullify those 8 hours. Evidently, sitting still some more in the evening is even worse. So sports are still a very good idea.

Check these out for more (scientific) knowledge bombs regarding health and sports.
- https://www.barbellmedicine.com/ (Real MDs checking out the latest science regarding health, sports, movement, pain, nutrition,...)
- https://www.strongerbyscience.com/ (Real PhDs and specialists in analysis of scientific studies discuss sports, strength, nutrition, health, ...)

 

[Axo1989]

The position in the picture you show is the only position that has been scientifically proven to be BAD. No other position has been correlated with any pain or health risks. But the one shown is the the only one that has. It's bad for your knees. ...

You may have reacted to the photo without reading the thread: the photo is intended to illustrate that "I use an optional drafting style foot-ring (the same as the picture) so my low desk height preset is 84 cm ...". That would be too high for a regular chair. The foot-ring adds two or three additional seating postures: as illustrated; the same but with feet flat on the ring; and extending the legs further to place one or both feet on the small footrests on top of each arm of the wheeled base. You'lll so notice the saddle seat doesn't exert the same pressure on bent knees and allows more extension.

... The problem is that people sit for too long stints and for too long periods in the same position. Any position is a good position, as long as you feel comfortable and as long as you change position regularly. The best thing to do is change position regularly and stand up regularly. And when you stand up, move around. ...

Which is why my first post said the "basic concept is to allow many and varied positions (standing is good but not all day)" with an animation depicting multiple sitting/standing/leaning postures that particular chair supports. And my third post (directly above yours) reiterates "I included details about my chair to indicate that standing per se wasn't my main goal, rather it was a multitude of working positions. I think this an important point you hit on initially." I'm pretty sure we agree.

 

[Digby]

I've used both kneeling chair and recumbent chair over the years but the arrangement I've set up now is a sit/stand/reversible saddle chair made by Flokk (the model is HÅG Capisco which they've been making since before I was born) together with an electric sit/stand desk (variable height plus configurable presets

Which particular model do you use? I tried some and was pleasantly surprised.

 

[RHO]

You may have reacted to the photo without reading the thread: the photo is intended to illustrate that "I use an optional drafting style foot-ring (the same as the picture) so my low desk height preset is 84 cm ...". That would be too high for a regular chair. The foot-ring adds two or three additional seating postures: as illustrated; the same but with feet flat on the ring; and extending the legs further to place one or both feet on the small footrests on top of each arm of the wheeled base. You'lll so notice the saddle seat doesn't exert the same pressure on bent knees and allows more extension.

Ah, I didn't notice the footrests on the arms.
The problem is the bent knees. I don't think any seated position is possible on such a chair without bending the knees less than 90deg.

Which is why my first post said the "basic concept is to allow many and varied positions (standing is good but not all day)" with an animation depicting multiple sitting/standing/leaning postures that particular chair supports. And my third post (directly above yours) reiterates "I included details about my chair to indicate that standing per se wasn't my main goal, rather it was a multitude of working positions. I think this an important point you hit on initially." I'm pretty sure we agree.

Yes, we agree on that 100%. I do like that chair and all the options for comfortable seating positions. And yes, standing all the time isn't ideal either.

 

[SIY]

 

[Axo1989]

Which particular model do you use? I tried some and was pleasantly surprised.

The kneeling chair was from Gregory (an Australian manufacturer) but it doesn't appear to be listed currently. It's a normal two cushion arrangement on a wheeled swivel base with hydraulic height adjustment.

The recumbent chair wasn't an ergonomic work chair, I happened to have a Cassina Wink (designed by Toshiyuki Kita circa 1980). Very comfortable to work on a laptop, but you'd need elbow support to do this all day/every day. You wouldn't buy one of those just for the office necessarily, but I think the recumbent concept is worth a try based on that experience.

 

[Axo1989]

Ah, I didn't notice the footrests on the arms.
The problem is the bent knees. I don't think any seated position is possible on such a chair without bending the knees less than 90deg.

I'm not clear what you mean but assume the bent knee angle in the photo is too sharp? Some people are more flexible so I think it's personal how long you'd do that. I don't personally sit that way (toes on the foot-ring) much. But feet flat on the ring (approx 90º) or on the base footrests (variable but less acute) isn't a problem in my experience so far.

 

[jhaider]

Have you spent time searching out particular chairs (or do you stand?), desks, mice and keyboards. I'd like to know what your setup is (if you've spent time thinking about ergonomics) and the reasoning behind it.

The main thing I did recently-ish is buy an adjustable sit-stand desk. Most of the ones on the market are flexy fliers if you’re tall. They only have one strut on each side. I started with Uplift but it swayed like crazy and the curved front bamboo top looked like it was machined by a toddler. It went back.

I eventually found a company called Deskhaus that makes a sturdy 4-strut (two per side) frame and sell a nice maple butcher block top for it as well. They’re also made in the US. It’s a very solid desk. The only thing it’s missing is grommets in the top. I could add but I’m not keen on drilling through 1.75” (45mm) maple. I use a topographic mat when standing. Don’t recall the brand - it was the Wirecutter rec at the time.

MiniDSP Studio SHD helps here because I can set separate xover, delay, and EQ presets for subwoofer integration sitting vs standing.

 

[192kbps]

Chair：Any chair with sacral support
Desk：Something like Herman Mille The Envelop Desk
MOUSE：Zaunkoenig M2K / G-Wolves HSK / Xenics Titan GE Air
Keyboard：NIZ

 

[RHO]

I'm not clear what you mean but assume the bent knee angle in the photo is too sharp? Some people are more flexible so I think it's personal how long you'd do that. I don't personally sit that way (toes on the foot-ring) much. But feet flat on the ring (approx 90º) or on the base footrests (variable but less acute) isn't a problem in my experience so far.

Yes, bent knees. This has been shown to have higher risk for developing knee pain. Doesn't mean you will definitely develop knee pain. Just that the risk is higher.
This in contrast to other seating positions, where there is no evidence of higher risk for developing pain.

 

[digitalfrost]

Guys...I just got a height adjustable desk. Why did I wait so long. It is awesome. I'm sure the novelty plays a role but I use it so much. It's great. Just listening to music late at night. Speakers are on the desktop, so I can raise them with the desk and it's so much more fun to listen and being able to move at the same time (great concept someone should develop this ).

The monitor stand I mentioned earlier...you need it with such a desk. The standing monitor position must be higher than seated so being able to adjust it quickly is very convenient.

I use the same desk for work and like during meeting, why not stand up you're not doing anything anyway. I love this thing.

 

[ryanosaur]

Ergonomics is a tricky one, though it doesn't need to be.
I think the most difficult part is having a negative-tilt keyborard which also allows your forearms to be sloping down and away from you. It is also generally recommended that the upper third of the monitior (roughly... perhaps upper quarter even), be in front of you if looking straight ahead.
Likewise, if sitting, your thighs should be sloping down and away from you, though standing is arguably better if you can do so with proper posture.

(My room setup has changed some since this photo, but not my workstation.)

FWIW, there is no way to use a laptop in ergonomic fashion without a separate keyboard and mouse or trackpad. A separate Monitor os also almost necessary.
Positive tilt to a keyboard requires that you "break" your wrists (back of hand is not in line with top of forearm). Likewise, if the toip of your screen is not at or slightly above eye level, you will invariably be looking down which is injurious to your neck and upper back.

Having whiskey near to hand just prevents the stress of having to look for a way to alleviate your stresses!