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Equalizing loudspeakers based on anechoic measurements (community project)

QMuse

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Hi,

I have just such a SW running in Matlab.
I have been publishing EQ suggestions based on Score-optimized EQ:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ctive-speaker-review.13436/page-3#post-432075
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tudio-monitor-review.14795/page-5#post-461044
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-m16-speaker-review.11884/page-23#post-458542
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...shelf-speaker-review.14745/page-2#post-458448


I agree with you that the only known/documented model is the Olive score and therefore we should stick with it.
Any deviation from it would need redoing the whole research for validation.

On the other hand my observations are very similar to TimVG's:
- with a speaker with partially constant directivity (i.e flat SPDI at HF, with a waveguide on the HF unit for example, non-coaxial ) the score improves by tilting down the whole response otherwise the PIR HF exhibits too much energy. This is a very important observation I believe.
- the midrange gets boosted to compensate (fill the lack of energy) for the directivity error around the crossover.

The following is based on idealized models so please no nitpicking I am just trying to extract trends…

The preference score Equation is:
PPR_ON = 12.69 - 2.49*NBD_ON - 2.99*NBD_PIR - 4.31*LFX + 2.32*SM_PIR;

If one ignores the LFX to avoid over-stretching the speaker, or latter on add multiple LF sources, then the score driving factor is the PIR.
One should therefore design the speaker with the PIR as priority.

This is linked with the research based on the in-room EQ AND the headphone target curve research both conducted by Harman.

“My” Interpretation:
- 2.49*NBD_ON (100Hz-12000Hz): the score benefits from a flat response with as little deviations from the average value as possible; we want NBD_ON=0.
Even adding a gentle slope would not result asymptotically in NBD_ON=0.
However, having the curve that looks like some stairs on each 1/2 octave band could yield 0 as well; not that I advocate this kind of design it is just a remark…

- 2.99*NBD_PIR (100Hz-12000Hz) same as NBD_ON, we want NBD_PIR=0
- 4.31*LFX: we want 4.31*LFX = 0 which means a 6dB cut-off of the SP to be 1Hz relative to the average of the ON response in the 300-10000Hz range.
If one wanted max Score = 10 (not sure why) then the LFX could be f6dB = 14.5Hz.
+ 2.32*SM_PIR (100-16000Hz) is comprised between 0 and 1, we want SM_PIR = 1.
To calculate this property of the PIR, first, one needs to make a LINEAR regression of the PIR, and then, the SM expresses the validity of this regression.
The more the PIR resembles the LINEAR regression the closer to 1 the SM_PIR will be. The PIR should therefore be a LINE with a slope, ANY slope.
This eliminates the stairs “case” from the NBD, as, in all likelihood, the derived PIR would not resemble a line.



This leads to design considerations on the target one should follow to achieve the best score possible.
  • NBD_ON = 0 translates into Flat for ON, OK nothing new there.
  • LFX: 14.5Hz, more reasonable that 1Hz… Doable with dedicated SWs stand alone or not and EQ
  • SM_PIR = 1 means PIR is a line with with a slope, ANY slope. That is the crux of the matter I believe.
Now, knowing that we also want NBD_PIR = 0 it means that the PIR should therefore be a FLAT line i.e. slope = 0.
  • NBD_PIR = 0 translates into Flat for PIR,
Remember PIR = 0.12*LW + 0.44*ER + 0.44*SP

Then a flat PIR also “probably” means
  • Flat LW
  • Flat ER
  • Flat SP

So now we have the “idealized” targets:
  • Flat ON: not a surprise
  • Flat LW: no variation on the tonal balance across the LW, not a surprise
  • Flat ER: no variation on the tonal balance with the ER, not a surprise
  • Flat SP: consequence of the rest of the targets, maybe not realistic, the SP contribution is much lower than the ER and LW in the PIR calculation so less critical


Now how does one make such a speaker, at least on the horizontal plan?
  • Controlled and constant directivity down to 100Hz via large drivers, waveguides and/or beam forming
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bang-olufsen-beolab-90-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/apple-homepod-measurement.8425/

Another good approximation:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OB4hm25dXms/XJVUs8TznTI/AAAAAAAAAEA/r6riUCqhZDgJO61yR8uKzWXbHDYsl_CJgCLcBGAs/s1600/Spin+-+Revel+Performa3Be+F228Be.png


That is also the target for Earl Geddes if I am not mistaken the difference being the DI value more of less high i.e. refection contribution.
  • Onmi-directional is a special case of this that might requires multiple HF sources to extend the omni character up to HF
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...directivity-speaker-review.13982/#post-426504

This is a very old debate that I do not pretend to solve here but that seems to tilt the balance towards constant directivity (Flat SPDI) vs monotonic increasing directivity i.e. a SPDI that increases constantly with frequency.
The latter providing:
  • Flat ON, OK for NBD_ON = 0
  • Tilted LW with built in issue with NBD_PIR = 0
  • Tilted ER with built in issue with NBD_PIR = 0
  • Tilted SP that might not be an issue with reasonably directive speakers (high DI)
  • Tilted PIR with built in issue with NBD_PIR = 0 but with no reason NOT to achieve SM_PIR = 1 target

Example:
https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com/2019/03/spinorama-data-kef.html

With all that been said, the score relies on anechoic data that does not include the room influence per definition.
So I guess one way to see things would be to stick to the these anechoic data within the limits of room/speaker dominated domains
Therefore we could restrict the target to the Schroder frequency (which one?) 500Hz as most large speaker Summa, JBL M2 or ?
to get a reasonable approximation of the design targets.


Sorry for the long post but I thought it was the right time to expand on my thoughts.

Cheers
M

You laid it out all very nicely - I definitely agree with all you said there. :)

It would be interesting to see how the optimum EQ would look for a speaker with directivity error, so maybe if you can calculate it for Salk speaker that was recently tested here?
 

edechamps

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A slight nitpick:

The more the PIR resembles the LINEAR regression the closer to 1 the SM_PIR will be.

It would be more correct to say that "The more the PIR resembles the linear regression, and the higher the slope of the regression, the closer to 1 SM_PIR will be."

The tricky interaction of deviation and slope in SM, combined with NBD that "counterbalances" increases in slope, makes it much harder to understand what the target PIR should be.
 
Last edited:

flipflop

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I've kinda lost track of what this thread is about, but I've got EQ settings for all the speakers measured by Amir and I wouldn't mind sharing some of them here before @pierre is ready to publish them on his website.
FWIW, my post-EQ predicted preference scores are higher than the ones posted by @Maiky76, which is no surprise as his EQs only seem to optimize the slope and not NBD.
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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I've kinda lost track of what this thread is about, but I've got EQ settings for all the speakers measured by Amir and I wouldn't mind sharing some of them here before @pierre is ready to publish them on his website.
FWIW, my post-EQ predicted preference scores are higher than the ones posted by @Maiky76, which is no surprise as his EQs only seem to optimize the slope and not NBD.

Would you mind sharing them for the 8030C, KH80 and Revel M105? I'm setting up a blind test to test filters on these.
 

Maiky76

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A slight nitpick:



It would be more correct to say that "The more the PIR resembles the linear regression, and the higher the slope of the regression, the closer to 1 SM_PIR will be."

The tricky interaction of deviation and slope in SM, combined with NBD that "counterbalances" increases in slope, makes it much harder to understand what the target PIR should be.


Not sure about the "and the higher the slope of the regression"
If the regression perfectly fits the observation then the SM should be 1 regardless of the slope, no?
Especially if the slope becomes infinite (vertical line in the cartesian coordinates) then there is no way to predict the outcome as all a single x value would take all possible outcomes (y values)?
 

Maiky76

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Would you mind sharing them for the 8030C, KH80 and Revel M105? I'm setting up a blind test to test filters on these.
@flipflop
Yes please! I can double check my results.
I am curious as I am not restricting anything except the LF extension otherwise i end up with +50dB @LF...
The genetic algo is just maximizing the score within the initial bandwidth of the speaker.
 
Last edited:

flipflop

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Would you mind sharing them for the 8030C, KH80 and Revel M105?
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 355 Hz Gain 0.3 dB Q 10.000
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 540 Hz Gain 0.7 dB Q 25.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 585 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 12.000
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 693 Hz Gain -1.3 dB Q 1.800
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 782 Hz Gain -0.5 dB Q 25.000
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1105 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 25.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 1665 Hz Gain 0.6 dB Q 20.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 1701 Hz Gain -1.8 dB Q 1.962
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 1745 Hz Gain -0.6 dB Q 25.000
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 2700 Hz Gain -0.5 dB Q 20.000
Filter 11: ON PK Fc 2793 Hz Gain 4.7 dB Q 1.133
Filter 12: ON PK Fc 3239 Hz Gain -3.4 dB Q 1.000
Filter 13: ON PK Fc 3380 Hz Gain 0.3 dB Q 10.000
Filter 14: ON PK Fc 5570 Hz Gain 0.4 dB Q 10.000
Filter 15: ON PK Fc 6680 Hz Gain -0.3 dB Q 8.000
Filter 16: ON PK Fc 8132 Hz Gain -1.6 dB Q 1.000
Filter 17: ON PK Fc 9500 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 4.000
Filter 18: ON PK Fc 11250 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 7.000
Filter 19: ON PK Fc 14870 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 1.000
Filter 20: ON PK Fc 18200 Hz Gain 0.9 dB Q 3.000
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 381 Hz Gain -0.7 dB Q 12.000
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 588 Hz Gain 0.8 dB Q 11.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 638 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 10.000
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 709 Hz Gain -0.3 dB Q 12.000
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 778 Hz Gain -0.7 dB Q 18.000
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1183 Hz Gain 0.6 dB Q 14.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 1540 Hz Gain 0.6 dB Q 8.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 1780 Hz Gain 1.4 dB Q 9.000
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 2060 Hz Gain 1.5 dB Q 8.000
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 2330 Hz Gain 1.3 dB Q 15.000
Filter 11: ON PK Fc 2635 Hz Gain 0.9 dB Q 25.000
Filter 12: ON PK Fc 2930 Hz Gain 0.8 dB Q 20.000
Filter 13: ON PK Fc 3232 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 24.000
Filter 14: ON PK Fc 3460 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 10.000
Filter 15: ON PK Fc 5600 Hz Gain 0.8 dB Q 10.000
Filter 16: ON PK Fc 6500 Hz Gain -0.5 dB Q 10.000
Filter 17: ON PK Fc 9750 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 4.500
Filter 18: ON PK Fc 10940 Hz Gain 0.4 dB Q 10.000
Filter 19: ON PK Fc 12650 Hz Gain -0.7 dB Q 5.000
Filter 20: ON PK Fc 16000 Hz Gain -2.6 dB Q 1.400
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 382 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 18.000
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 445 Hz Gain 0.8 dB Q 5.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 505 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 5.000
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 604 Hz Gain 1.1 dB Q 7.000
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 660 Hz Gain -0.8 dB Q 10.000
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 917 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 3.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 1540 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 15.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 1650 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 10.000
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 1760 Hz Gain -0.5 dB Q 15.000
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 2000 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 15.000
Filter 11: ON PK Fc 2361 Hz Gain -0.9 dB Q 1.000
Filter 12: ON PK Fc 2451 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 20.000
Filter 13: ON PK Fc 2555 Hz Gain 0.9 dB Q 22.000
Filter 14: ON PK Fc 3300 Hz Gain -0.3 dB Q 5.000
Filter 15: ON PK Fc 4894 Hz Gain -2.1 dB Q 1.482
Filter 16: ON PK Fc 4950 Hz Gain 0.6 dB Q 18.000
Filter 17: ON PK Fc 5650 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 6.000
Filter 18: ON PK Fc 8050 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 4.000
Filter 19: ON PK Fc 10515 Hz Gain -0.8 dB Q 1.000
Filter 20: ON PK Fc 13800 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 1.700
pierre has yet to calculate the post-EQ scorse for these speakers, so I can't tell you what they are yet. Of the 4 speakers Maiky76 posted EQs for, it's actually only the PreSonus E5 XT I've got a post-EQ score of. Sorry about that.
I'm still confident those filters yield a substantial improvement, though.

I am curious as I am not restricting anything except the LF extension otherwise i end up with +50dB @LF...
All my EQs are from 300 Hz and up.
 
OP
TimVG

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Filter 1: ON PK Fc 355 Hz Gain 0.3 dB Q 10.000
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 540 Hz Gain 0.7 dB Q 25.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 585 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 12.000
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 693 Hz Gain -1.3 dB Q 1.800
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 782 Hz Gain -0.5 dB Q 25.000
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1105 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 25.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 1665 Hz Gain 0.6 dB Q 20.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 1701 Hz Gain -1.8 dB Q 1.962
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 1745 Hz Gain -0.6 dB Q 25.000
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 2700 Hz Gain -0.5 dB Q 20.000
Filter 11: ON PK Fc 2793 Hz Gain 4.7 dB Q 1.133
Filter 12: ON PK Fc 3239 Hz Gain -3.4 dB Q 1.000
Filter 13: ON PK Fc 3380 Hz Gain 0.3 dB Q 10.000
Filter 14: ON PK Fc 5570 Hz Gain 0.4 dB Q 10.000
Filter 15: ON PK Fc 6680 Hz Gain -0.3 dB Q 8.000
Filter 16: ON PK Fc 8132 Hz Gain -1.6 dB Q 1.000
Filter 17: ON PK Fc 9500 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 4.000
Filter 18: ON PK Fc 11250 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 7.000
Filter 19: ON PK Fc 14870 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 1.000
Filter 20: ON PK Fc 18200 Hz Gain 0.9 dB Q 3.000
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 381 Hz Gain -0.7 dB Q 12.000
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 588 Hz Gain 0.8 dB Q 11.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 638 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 10.000
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 709 Hz Gain -0.3 dB Q 12.000
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 778 Hz Gain -0.7 dB Q 18.000
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1183 Hz Gain 0.6 dB Q 14.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 1540 Hz Gain 0.6 dB Q 8.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 1780 Hz Gain 1.4 dB Q 9.000
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 2060 Hz Gain 1.5 dB Q 8.000
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 2330 Hz Gain 1.3 dB Q 15.000
Filter 11: ON PK Fc 2635 Hz Gain 0.9 dB Q 25.000
Filter 12: ON PK Fc 2930 Hz Gain 0.8 dB Q 20.000
Filter 13: ON PK Fc 3232 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 24.000
Filter 14: ON PK Fc 3460 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 10.000
Filter 15: ON PK Fc 5600 Hz Gain 0.8 dB Q 10.000
Filter 16: ON PK Fc 6500 Hz Gain -0.5 dB Q 10.000
Filter 17: ON PK Fc 9750 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 4.500
Filter 18: ON PK Fc 10940 Hz Gain 0.4 dB Q 10.000
Filter 19: ON PK Fc 12650 Hz Gain -0.7 dB Q 5.000
Filter 20: ON PK Fc 16000 Hz Gain -2.6 dB Q 1.400
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 382 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 18.000
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 445 Hz Gain 0.8 dB Q 5.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 505 Hz Gain -1.0 dB Q 5.000
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 604 Hz Gain 1.1 dB Q 7.000
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 660 Hz Gain -0.8 dB Q 10.000
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 917 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 3.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 1540 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 15.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 1650 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 10.000
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 1760 Hz Gain -0.5 dB Q 15.000
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 2000 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 15.000
Filter 11: ON PK Fc 2361 Hz Gain -0.9 dB Q 1.000
Filter 12: ON PK Fc 2451 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 20.000
Filter 13: ON PK Fc 2555 Hz Gain 0.9 dB Q 22.000
Filter 14: ON PK Fc 3300 Hz Gain -0.3 dB Q 5.000
Filter 15: ON PK Fc 4894 Hz Gain -2.1 dB Q 1.482
Filter 16: ON PK Fc 4950 Hz Gain 0.6 dB Q 18.000
Filter 17: ON PK Fc 5650 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 6.000
Filter 18: ON PK Fc 8050 Hz Gain 0.5 dB Q 4.000
Filter 19: ON PK Fc 10515 Hz Gain -0.8 dB Q 1.000
Filter 20: ON PK Fc 13800 Hz Gain -0.4 dB Q 1.700
pierre has yet to calculate the post-EQ scorse for these speakers, so I can't tell you what they are yet. Of the 4 speakers Maiky76 posted EQs for, it's actually only the PreSonus E5 XT I've got a post-EQ score of. Sorry about that.
I'm still confident those filters yield a substantial improvement, though.


All my EQs are from 300 Hz and up.


Just a quick casual listen with the 8030C .. Not preferred at all. It sounds quite dull! If we check out the result of this filter on the on-axis curve we can clearly see why (note I did not see the result beforehand).

1595849750711.png


The direct sound is lacking in treble.
 
OP
TimVG

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Hi,

I have just such a SW running in Matlab.
I have been publishing EQ suggestions based on Score-optimized EQ:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ctive-speaker-review.13436/page-3#post-432075
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tudio-monitor-review.14795/page-5#post-461044
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-m16-speaker-review.11884/page-23#post-458542
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...shelf-speaker-review.14745/page-2#post-458448


I agree with you that the only known/documented model is the Olive score and therefore we should stick with it.
Any deviation from it would need redoing the whole research for validation.

On the other hand my observations are very similar to TimVG's:
- with a speaker with partially constant directivity (i.e flat SPDI at HF, with a waveguide on the HF unit for example, non-coaxial ) the score improves by tilting down the whole response otherwise the PIR HF exhibits too much energy. This is a very important observation I believe.
- the midrange gets boosted to compensate (fill the lack of energy) for the directivity error around the crossover.

The following is based on idealized models so please no nitpicking I am just trying to extract trends…

The preference score Equation is:
PPR_ON = 12.69 - 2.49*NBD_ON - 2.99*NBD_PIR - 4.31*LFX + 2.32*SM_PIR;

If one ignores the LFX to avoid over-stretching the speaker, or latter on add multiple LF sources, then the score driving factor is the PIR.
One should therefore design the speaker with the PIR as priority.

This is linked with the research based on the in-room EQ AND the headphone target curve research both conducted by Harman.

“My” Interpretation:
- 2.49*NBD_ON (100Hz-12000Hz): the score benefits from a flat response with as little deviations from the average value as possible; we want NBD_ON=0.
Even adding a gentle slope would not result asymptotically in NBD_ON=0.
However, having the curve that looks like some stairs on each 1/2 octave band could yield 0 as well; not that I advocate this kind of design it is just a remark…

- 2.99*NBD_PIR (100Hz-12000Hz) same as NBD_ON, we want NBD_PIR=0
- 4.31*LFX: we want 4.31*LFX = 0 which means a 6dB cut-off of the SP to be 1Hz relative to the average of the ON response in the 300-10000Hz range.
If one wanted max Score = 10 (not sure why) then the LFX could be f6dB = 14.5Hz.
+ 2.32*SM_PIR (100-16000Hz) is comprised between 0 and 1, we want SM_PIR = 1.
To calculate this property of the PIR, first, one needs to make a LINEAR regression of the PIR, and then, the SM expresses the validity of this regression.
The more the PIR resembles the LINEAR regression the closer to 1 the SM_PIR will be. The PIR should therefore be a LINE with a slope, ANY slope.
This eliminates the stairs “case” from the NBD, as, in all likelihood, the derived PIR would not resemble a line.



This leads to design considerations on the target one should follow to achieve the best score possible.
  • NBD_ON = 0 translates into Flat for ON, OK nothing new there.
  • LFX: 14.5Hz, more reasonable that 1Hz… Doable with dedicated SWs stand alone or not and EQ
  • SM_PIR = 1 means PIR is a line with with a slope, ANY slope. That is the crux of the matter I believe.
Now, knowing that we also want NBD_PIR = 0 it means that the PIR should therefore be a FLAT line i.e. slope = 0.
  • NBD_PIR = 0 translates into Flat for PIR,
Remember PIR = 0.12*LW + 0.44*ER + 0.44*SP

Then a flat PIR also “probably” means
  • Flat LW
  • Flat ER
  • Flat SP

So now we have the “idealized” targets:
  • Flat ON: not a surprise
  • Flat LW: no variation on the tonal balance across the LW, not a surprise
  • Flat ER: no variation on the tonal balance with the ER, not a surprise
  • Flat SP: consequence of the rest of the targets, maybe not realistic, the SP contribution is much lower than the ER and LW in the PIR calculation so less critical


Now how does one make such a speaker, at least on the horizontal plan?
  • Controlled and constant directivity down to 100Hz via large drivers, waveguides and/or beam forming
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bang-olufsen-beolab-90-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/apple-homepod-measurement.8425/

Another good approximation:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OB4hm25dXms/XJVUs8TznTI/AAAAAAAAAEA/r6riUCqhZDgJO61yR8uKzWXbHDYsl_CJgCLcBGAs/s1600/Spin+-+Revel+Performa3Be+F228Be.png


That is also the target for Earl Geddes if I am not mistaken the difference being the DI value more of less high i.e. refection contribution.
  • Onmi-directional is a special case of this that might requires multiple HF sources to extend the omni character up to HF
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...directivity-speaker-review.13982/#post-426504

This is a very old debate that I do not pretend to solve here but that seems to tilt the balance towards constant directivity (Flat SPDI) vs monotonic increasing directivity i.e. a SPDI that increases constantly with frequency.
The latter providing:
  • Flat ON, OK for NBD_ON = 0
  • Tilted LW with built in issue with NBD_PIR = 0
  • Tilted ER with built in issue with NBD_PIR = 0
  • Tilted SP that might not be an issue with reasonably directive speakers (high DI)
  • Tilted PIR with built in issue with NBD_PIR = 0 but with no reason NOT to achieve SM_PIR = 1 target

Example:
https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com/2019/03/spinorama-data-kef.html

With all that been said, the score relies on anechoic data that does not include the room influence per definition.
So I guess one way to see things would be to stick to the these anechoic data within the limits of room/speaker dominated domains
Therefore we could restrict the target to the Schroder frequency (which one?) 500Hz as most large speaker Summa, JBL M2 or ?
to get a reasonable approximation of the design targets.


Sorry for the long post but I thought it was the right time to expand on my thoughts.

Cheers
M

Same result but less extreme than FlipFlops - also lacking energy in the treble. Again after simulation we can see why in terms of direct sound.

1595850554531.png
 

flipflop

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Just a quick casual listen with the 8030C .. Not preferred at all. It sounds quite dull! If we check out the result of this filter on the on-axis curve we can clearly see why (note I did not see the result beforehand).

View attachment 75371

The direct sound is lacking in treble.
Yes, most of my EQs are based on the PIR, so the on-axis response can't be expected to be perfectly flat.
pierre just shared the post-EQ scores with me for the remaining speakers and 8030C went from a 6.3 to a 6.9 with improvements to all score components, including ON_NBD.
KH80 went from 6.2 to 6.7 and M105 went from 5.8 to 6.4.

I can make a new 8030C EQ for you with a more gentle slope, but the midrange might suffer as a result. Alternatively, I can make one based or the on-axis response or the LW.
 
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TimVG

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Yes, most of my EQs are based on the PIR, so the on-axis response can't be expected to be perfectly flat.
pierre just shared the post-EQ scores with me for the remaining speakers and 8030C went from a 6.3 to a 6.9 with improvements to all score components, including ON_NBD.
KH80 went from 6.2 to 6.7 and M105 went from 5.8 to 6.4.

I can make a new 8030C EQ for you with a more gentle slope, but the midrange might suffer as a result. Alternatively, I can make one based or the on-axis response or the LW.

I already made those if you check the first couple of posts.
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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Can you plz post your actual in-room response made with MMM from your LP?

No microphone installed at the moment, this will be for later today or tomorrow.
 

QMuse

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Yes, most of my EQs are based on the PIR, so the on-axis response can't be expected to be perfectly flat.
pierre just shared the post-EQ scores with me for the remaining speakers and 8030C went from a 6.3 to a 6.9 with improvements to all score components, including ON_NBD.
KH80 went from 6.2 to 6.7 and M105 went from 5.8 to 6.4.

I can make a new 8030C EQ for you with a more gentle slope, but the midrange might suffer as a result. Alternatively, I can make one based or the on-axis response or the LW.

I got an impresson that your EQ was optimised for highest Oilve's score but instead it seems you simply hammered the PIR toward some target curve. Have you done it with REW?

Btw, using high Q with LF filters is not something I would do. Using Q=20, or even 10, with filters at 5kHz is IMO definitely not advised.
 

flipflop

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I got an impresson that your EQ was optimised for highest Oilve's score but instead it seems you simply hammered the PIR toward some target curve.
Correct. Most of my EQs are based on the PIR and use a 1.0 dB/octave slope. I wanted to give all the speakers an equal treatment and this seemed like the only universal approach that worked. I might have to revise some of the EQs at a later date.
Have you done it with REW?
Yes.
Btw, using high Q with LF filters is not something I would do. Using Q=20, or even 10, with filters at 5kHz is IMO definitely not advised.
Feel free to elaborate :)
 
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TimVG

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Correct. Most of my EQs are based on the PIR and use a 1.0 dB/octave slope. I wanted to give all the speakers an equal treatment and this seemed like the only universal approach that worked. I might have to revise some of the EQs at a later date.

I believe this is one of the limitations of the preference model. The -1dB octave slope on the PIR curve only works well with loudspeakers that adhere to a certain directivity model, once you deviate from this it negatively starts to affect the direct sound, which is arguably the most important.
 

flipflop

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flipflop

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But not an improvement when actually listening, what does that tell us?
That listening must be done blind.
Besides it's clear as day the direct sound suffers with certain designs more than others when correcting for PIR.
It doesn't "suffer" for any of the speakers I've made EQs for. Please have a look at the spreadsheet I posted. Otherwise let's agree to disagree.
 

Maiky76

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pierre just shared the post-EQ scores with me for the remaining speakers and 8030C went from a 6.3 to a 6.9 with improvements to all score components, including ON_NBD.
KH80 went from 6.2 to 6.7 and M105 went from 5.8 to 6.4.

Very interesting!
Your EQ for the 8030C, 20 EQ points with many tiny sharp adjustments towards NBD: 6.9

My EQ 5 points: score 6.83
PEQ 273.7Hz, 1.17dB, 0.94,...
PEQ 1720.0Hz, -2.27dB, 2.52,...
PEQ 2250.0Hz, 2.25dB, 0.88,...
PEQ 4630.0Hz, -0.97dB, 7.30,...
PEQ 6785.0Hz, -0.73dB, 4.44,...

The NBD is just not the driving factor as I explained, the EQ I design are based on diminishing return based directly on the score.
 
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