Equalizer APO and ASIO

[Jose Hidalgo]

That was an amazing post that will most certainly save me some hair. THANK YOU.

I get what you said about EAPO configuration. Plus I've seen how AutoEQ site provides .txt files for all their presets, so it should be easy to copy/paste such files' content (not even need for PEACE actually), either in the main config.txt file or via a tree-like structure. We'll see when I get to that part.

The remaining questions (sorry) :

• You say "attach EAPO to the two USB devices instead downstream from Voicemeeter". This is the part that gets me confused. I get the idea, but I don't know how to achieve this, sorry for being so confused :
  • Should I set DAC 1 to A1 and DAC 2 to A2 (physical outputs), or should I set EAPO 1 to B1 and EAPO 2 to B2 (virtual outputs) ?
  • Would I attach EAPO to the two USB devices using config.txt too ?
• You say "leave the preamp volume at -0.2 dB". You mean in EAPO or in Voicemeeter ?

 

[Vasr]

The remaining questions (sorry) :

• You say "attach EAPO to the two USB devices instead downstream from Voicemeeter". This is the part that gets me confused. I get the idea, but I don't know how to achieve this, sorry for being so confused :
  • Should I set DAC 1 to A1 and DAC 2 to A2 (physical outputs), or should I set EAPO 1 to B1 and EAPO 2 to B2 (virtual outputs) ?
  • Would I attach EAPO to the two USB devices using config.txt too ?
• You say "leave the preamp volume at -0.2 dB". You mean in EAPO or in Voicemeeter ?

Read this part I wrote again

When you install EAPO, you get two different confusingly named apps in the Start menu under Equalizer APO group. One is called the Configurator. This is used in Admin mode to attach EAPO to audio devices and unrelated to any filters or other things you do to process the sound. The latter is done via the other app called Configuration Editor which is a GUI front-end to create and edit the config.txt file it uses to process the audio.

In the configuration editor you can specify filters, pre-amp levels, crossovers, etc. The order of processing goes from top to bottom. You use the + sign to add a "control" (filter, volume, selection, etc).

• Should I set DAC 1 to A1 and DAC 2 to A2 (physical outputs), or should I set EAPO 1 to B1 and EAPO 2 to B2 (virtual outputs) ?

This is why I warned not to juggle two things at one time. You are mixing up Voicemeeter and EAPO without understanding each fully. Don't do that.

A1 and A2 of Voicemeeter should be pointing to the physical device drivers for the two USB drivers. Voicemeeter will not know about the existence of EAPO downstream. EAPO will have nothing to do with Voicemeeter in my suggested flow.

At this point you should start installing things and follow my suggestions carefully one at a time. The instructions make a lot more sense with the software in front of you.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I see. Voicemeeter will not know about EAPO, but since Voicemeeter won't output ASIO or any other exclusive mode, then EAPO will be able to intervene downstream by being attached to the two audio devices.

I get it now, I just got mixed up between the two different suggestions that you guys made (EAPO downstream vs. EAPO as a Voicemeeter plugin). I think I'm good to start now. I will try and follow your steps.

 

[Atanasi]

That is interesting. By this I assume you mean if you attach EAPO to Voicemeeter virtual input device in the Configurator, you can still do ASIO to that device and EAPO will work. Or is there a different way to attach the EAPO as a plugin to use Voicemeeter API?

In any case, this won't help him because of the need to split to two devices and separate EQ for each. The selector won't be available for the outputs A1 and A2 inside EAPO if attached to the Voicemeeter input.

EAPO is attached to outputs, not virtual inputs.

When EAPO is enabled, the A indicator of the title bar of Voicemeeter's UI lights up, signalling that a plugin is active. Clicking the indicator shows details.

Equalizer APO works as a bus insert, which means it receives the audio from output busses, processes them and gives back the processed output.

This actually works through Voicemeeter Audio API, not as an APO. There is an SDK people can download.

 

[Vasr]

EAPO is attached to outputs, not virtual inputs.
View attachment 110484
When EAPO is enabled, the A indicator of the title bar of Voicemeeter's UI lights up, signalling that a plugin is active. Clicking the indicator shows details.
View attachment 110485
Equalizer APO works as a bus insert, which means it receives the audio from output busses, processes them and gives back the processed output.View attachment 110486
This actually works through Voicemeeter Audio API, not as an APO. There is an SDK people can download.

Ah, that makes sense. Ok, two options clarified for @Jose Hidalgo so as not to confuse him!

1. Install VoiceMeeter and test out the chain to play audio through both DACs without using EAPO.
2. After installing EAPO, in the EAPO Configurator (don't mix up the two options below, do one or the other)

Option 1: Choose to install EAPO to Output A1 and Output A2 as pictured in the screen shot above (note these options will appear in the Configurator only AFTER Voicemeeter has the Outputs A1 and A2 assigned to available devices, so Step 1 above must be completed first). Then in the EAPO Configuration Edtor for the Device Selection Control you can choose Output A1 and Output A2 to head the sections with different EQs for the two DACs. This will allow you to use any driver mode including ASIO to Voicemeeter virtual inputs and any driver mode including ASIO to the USB DACs.

Option 2: Choose to install EAPO to USB1 and USB2 as I had suggested earlier. In the EAPO Configuration Edtor for the Device Selection Control you can choose USB 1 and USB 2 to head the sections with different EQs for the two DACs. This will allow any mode including ASIO to play to Voicemeeter virtual input from Foobar as the option above but will require a non-direct mode to connect the Outputs A1 and A2 within Voicemeeter to the USB devices.

Either of the options will work. Least amount of latency and no Windows engine artifacts if using ASIO throughout in Option 1. If not using ASIO (or any direct mode) then both are equivalent.

 

[Dreyfus]

You should try Cantabile. It is a Live VST Host with many routing and binding options. I use it for my DSP HTPC as replacement for EQ Apo. The ASIO performance was pretty stable so far.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

You should try Cantabile. It is a Live VST Host with many routing and binding options. I use it for my DSP HTPC as replacement for EQ Apo. The ASIO performance was pretty stable so far.

Thanks for the idea, I didn't know about it I don't know how it would work in my case though.
Like said previously, my goal is not only EQ but virtualization, and AFAIK that can be best achieved through HeSuVi which requires EAPO.

Plus EAPO would easily allow to create toggles and bind them to hot keys (e.g. using AutoHotkey) for quickly switching EQ presets, turning virtualization on/off, etc.. I haven't tried yet, but I like the idea.

• Example for EAPO : https://bradshacks.com/apo-switch/
• Example for HeSuVi : https://sourceforge.net/p/hesuvi/discussion/general/thread/6892a695/

 

[Dreyfus]

I just thought I should throw that in, in the general context of this thread.

With ASIO I have access to a wide range of VST plugins for sound processing without having to mess with the native Windows audio implementation combined with VB Cable and Voicemeeter. My main goal is to apply digital XO and room equalization through a PEQ plugin. But I also plan to play around with some convolution plugins in the future. Other than that I have a large set of target curves which I can trigger via hotkey. Cantabile offers bindings with system-wide keypresses to activate / deactivate plugins, load pre-configured routings, alter plugin-specific parameters etc. As remote trigger I use an app called "Matric" to execute various key bindings on my HTPC.

Pretty happy with that setup so far. Unfortunately, the "Solo" version with the key binding feature is not free. In return you get ongoing developement support however.

 

[AKBAAR]

https://vb-audio.com/Cable/index.htm

 

[Atanasi]

I noticed that if using Voicemeeter or VB-Audio virtual cables, one should definitely not allow the cable driver to resample. This introduces nasty distortion (spikes up to -60 dB FS).
The sampling rate of the input and output side and the internal sampling rate should always be equal, and if using Voicemeeter, its sampling rate should also be the same. I don't think there's a way to change all of these at the same time, which isn't the best user experience.

I think allowing this kind of resampling is a misfeature, and VB-Audio Hifi Cable, which refuses to work if the sampling rates are not equal, is the more sensible choice (fail-fast).

 

[sweetchaos]

Wrote a quick how-to-guide based on information from this thread:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ndows-10-pc-with-separate-peq-profiles.20935/

Let me know if I made any obvious mistakes...but I have to say that it's working nicely!

 

[Chromatischism]

WASAPI exclusive bypasses the APO as well. WASAPI shared in Foobar works with Equalizer APO.

Thank you for this.

More here including download links (click title to go to thread): https://www.reddit.com/r/foobar2000/comments/bx5g4m

 

[Chromatischism]

Also I think it's interesting how Equalizer APO takes over the Windows EQ via Realtek:

There used to be an equalizer there:

 

[Deleted member 4708]

I use hardware to achieve the same: Motu 8A will store EQ profiles. I have EQd all my headphones, created routes for them in the mixer and all I have to do now is select the (virtual) output to assign to the headphones. I find this better as it is player / computer independent.

 

[dawnrazor]

Crashing in here. I have been trying to get Voice Meeter to work before integrating the eq. I can get it to play you tube and windoze sounds. But my player sees the Voice meeter asio and WDM drivers but no sound comes out. I get an error on the WDM driver but the asio driver it just plays with no sound.

I think I know the issue. Voice Meeter is only 16 or 24bit right? My player only works with 32 bit asio drivers. If Voice Meeter can do 32 bit where do you select it? Been looking through manuals and even watched an asio setup vid in french. No joy.

If its only 24bit, is there something that will work the same way but handle 32 bit.

Basically I need something that is a virtual asio driver that can run eq and or vst and then talk to the Dante Virtual Soundcard driver.

Help.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

1. Voicemeeter is 24bit internally, as said by its developer, but it doesn't need to be 32bit to be compatible with 32bit players
2. In ASIO it uses 32FloatLSB, so there shouldn't be any issues : https://www.mgraves.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/000962.png . I don't think you need another software : Voicemeeter works just fine for zillions of people that aren't different from you.
3. Most importantly, you don't need ASIO anymore, as explained here : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nding-the-windows-audio-quality-debate.19438/ . That made me stop using ASIO. Best thing I ever did.
4. There is a great Voicemeeter tutorial here (without ASIO) : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ndows-10-pc-with-separate-peq-profiles.20935/
5. If Voicemeeter doesn't work for you, try Voicemeeter Banana. Worked for me.

 

[dawnrazor]

1. Voicemeeter is 24bit internally, as said by its developer, but it doesn't need to be 32bit to be compatible with 32bit players
2. In ASIO it uses 32FloatLSB, so there shouldn't be any issues : https://www.mgraves.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/000962.png . I don't think you need another software : Voicemeeter works just fine for zillions of people that aren't different from you.
3. Most importantly, you don't need ASIO anymore, as explained here : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nding-the-windows-audio-quality-debate.19438/ . That made me stop using ASIO. Best thing I ever did.
4. There is a great Voicemeeter tutorial here (without ASIO) : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ndows-10-pc-with-separate-peq-profiles.20935/
5. If Voicemeeter doesn't work for you, try Voicemeeter Banana. Worked for me.

Thanks a ton for the response.
Sadly the issue is 24 bit. I saw the 32bit options in voice meeter and tried them both with no luck. It was the same with my Lynx soundcard. Some settings implied 32 bit but the driver was only 24 bit and would not work.

is there a 32 bit option or similar software?

i thought about ditching the player but i need one that could be controlled by an iphone. In 2021 one would think that should be every player. But man i tried several and never could get them to actually work even if they had their own app. Jplay and audionrvana come to mind.

Anyhow i really do need asio. The music computer has alot of services turned off including the windows audio service and other things I am sure it relies on. It would be a big time sink to mess with all that again.

i would like to use the Reveal plugin which afaik is vst. Afaik vst plugins only work with asio. Is that not true?

even if i could ditch asio i am skeptical about the windows sq. Yes even with the measurements in that link you posted. This is not the place to go into it i suppose but long story it comes down to the soundstage. No one seems to care about that and what measurements address it? Even using asio the player can affect the soundstage

anyhow I think i have a partial solution. Behringer makes a digital eq that is supposed to be pretty good. I could just get that. It also has the ability to widen the stereo field which i bet i would like. But that wont help with the vst plugins.

i was hoping voice meeter would be 32bit and i had just missed a setting. It seems like a great program.

thanks again.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

You can ask Voicemeeter-related questions directly to its developer, here : https://forum.vb-audio.com/
You need to send an email for your registration to be validated, otherwise it won't.

I don't think your problem is 24bit. I'm using Voicemeeter Banana in the following config : 32bit player > Voicemeeter > 32bit DACs. No issues at all.
The problem could be either in your player (a 32bit player MUST support lower bit depths) or in your DAC driver. Voicemeeter works fine.

As for the rest, I think ASR may not be the best forum for you. Here we believe in science and measurements, not in audiophile stuff. When I say "you don't need ASIO" it's not an opinion but a fact. Since DDF's topic that was demonstrated, acknowledged, and I don't think it's open to discussion, unless somebody proved him wrong. But feel free to post in that topic if you have evidence that points otherwise.

Good luck with your expensive ventures!

 

[Chromatischism]

it comes down to the soundstage. No one seems to care about that and what measurements address it?

Frequency response and beamwidth.

Even using asio the player can affect the soundstage

Doubtful this can be detected if tested double blind.

 

[Atanasi]

If you want an alternative to Voicemeeter, Jack is the go-to professional solution on Linux. It has been ported to Windows, but last time I tried, it didn't work so well. I would like to try again soon and report my experience.
The advantage of Jack is flexibility: applications, filters and devices can be connected in any way the user desires, and there are adapters for many filter interfaces. The name Jack refers to emulating audio connectors that can be connected together.

Unlike Voicemeeter, Jack on Windows cannot in itself receive audio from ordinary Windows applications, those not supporting ASIO. Jack would have to be combined with VB-Audio's virtual cables or similar.