Equalized HD700 vs HD800

[JJB70]

The Sennheiser outlet currently has an offer on the HD800S.

This has nothing to do with the SQ I know but when I have tried the HD700 I have been a bit disappointed with the build and they feel very low rent for the price IMO.

 

[Graph Feppar]

The Sennheiser outlet currently has an offer on the HD800S.

This has nothing to do with the SQ I know but when I have tried the HD700 I have been a bit disappointed with the build and they feel very low rent for the price IMO.

Really? Hmmm ..... good to know, thanks for warning. I have already contacted my local shop so they will order HD700 and let me try it but I have to say I really appreciate honest critique like that.

 

[Graph Feppar]

By the way, is HD700 made in Ireland or Germany?

 

[wadec22]

Get the HD 800 and install the SDR mod. No need to EQ the highs.

I still had to EQ. Depends on how treble sensitive you are

 

[flipflop]

Do you mind saying why diffuse field is antiquated when it comes to headphones?

Two reasons.

First is that websites, which frequently publish high quality measurements, are now using either the Harman target curve or a modification of it.
Unfortunately, there's currently only two sites that fit the description: 0db.co.kr, who uses the Harman target, and rtings.com, who also uses the Harman target, but somewhat modified, in order for it to fit their measurement rig.
Sonarworks have made a ton of measurements and continue to do so for their EQ software. They're not very transparent about those things, so neither measurements nor their exact curve have been published, however they did confirm using a modified Harman curve.

Second reason is the technicalities.
Headphones are supposed to sound like good speakers (in an appropriate listening room).
The problem with diffuse field compensation is that it sounds thin and bright, while a proper compensation curve would just sound flat, i.e., not lacking bass and not having too much treble. To answer why this problem exists, Ulrich Horbach gives a very good explanation in the 2015 AES paper 'Characterizing the Frequency Response of Headphones – a new Paradigm':

So far, we designed a headphone with perceived flat frequency response. It would correctly reproduce a binaural recording. However, music content that is produced to sound best over loudspeakers, which are heard as external sound sources in a listening room, sounds unnatural over headphones. The sound appears overly bright because of lacking room absorption at high frequencies, and spatially compressed to a “space” between left and right ears inside the head.

I'm not saying that the Harman target curve is flawless, but with all the work Sean Olive has put into it, it makes a more compelling case than the alternatives.

By the way, is HD700 made in Ireland or Germany?

"Designed in Germany, assembled in Ireland"
https://en-us.sennheiser.com/audiophile-headphones-high-end-around-ear-hd-700

 

[garbulky]

Ehh... what? I never wrote that I want to "make the HD700 to sound like the hd800 (or its equal) in quality.".

I wrote I can EQ them both to have HD600 like neutral-ish frequency response. That means no matter how cancerous is the out of box FR, I will give them good flat tonality with the power of APO EQ.

I did misunderstand. So you're buying it expecting them to sound worse in tone than the HD600 that you already have. That's even more unusual. From a closer reading it seems that you think you can toke tonality out of the equation by manipulation of the signal. I wish you luck! Let us know what you think.

 

[Graph Feppar]

I did misunderstand. So you're buying it expecting them to sound worse in tone than the HD600 that you already have. That's even more unusual. From a closer reading it seems that you think you can toke tonality out of the equation by manipulation of the signal. I wish you luck! Let us know what you think.

What? Yes I am buying them expecting the out of box non modified non equalized tonality to be very bad. There is nothing unusual, if headphone is good in every way except frequency response, its normal thing to use equalizer to make the FR whatever the listener prefers.

Studio people do it all the time, their studio room resonances makes bass region look like hair comb, they use equalizers and even advanced DSP auto equalizers to make the frequency response flat, they turn very bad response to very good flat response with EQ.

 

[pwjazz]

I spent several hours tweaking the EQ, but still prefer the HD 700's

Achieving a perfect frequency match between two headphones of different design is difficult because they interact differently with your ear. Even the best measurements will be based on an average artificial ear which will not be exactly like yours. This particular case is especially difficult because the HD700 has angled drivers and the HD600 does not.

 

[Graph Feppar]

Achieving a perfect frequency match between two headphones of different design is difficult because they interact differently with your ear. Even the best measurements will be based on an average artificial ear which will not be exactly like yours. This particular case is especially difficult because the HD700 has angled drivers and the HD600 does not.

No its not, its completly irrelevant if they are angled or different. The whole journey of sound from digital format through DAC > AMP > headphones > ears to eardrum can be all described by single transfer fuction, except the driver and eardrum nonlinearity which is low enough to be ignored for sake of rough +-2db equalization with flat target curve, that entire journey is linear time-invariant system with single transfer fuction.

I doesnt matter if frequency response peak at eardrum is caused by angled driver and resulting ear related transfer function or if its driver diaphragm breakup mode or if there is cup resonance, peak is peak and EQ can make it flat no matter where and how it originated.

 

[garbulky]

What? Yes I am buying them expecting the out of box non modified non equalized tonality to be very bad. There is nothing unusual, if headphone is good in every way except frequency response, its normal thing to use equalizer to make the FR whatever the listener prefers.

Studio people do it all the time, their studio room resonances makes bass region look like hair comb, they use equalizers and even advanced DSP auto equalizers to make the frequency response flat, they turn very bad response to very good flat response with EQ.

Sounds like you have some experience with it. I'm skeptical it's going to work out to be identical in tone. But hey what do I know. I Sure haven't tried DSP headphones.

 

[pwjazz]

No its not, its completly irrelevant if they are angled or different. The whole journey of sound from digital format through DAC > AMP > headphones > ears to eardrum can be all described by single transfer fuction, except the driver and eardrum nonlinearity which is low enough to be ignored for sake of rough +-2db equalization with flat target curve, that entire journey is linear time-invariant system with single transfer fuction.

I doesnt matter if frequency response peak at eardrum is caused by angled driver and resulting ear related transfer function or if its driver diaphragm breakup mode or if there is cup resonance, peak is peak and EQ can make it flat no matter where and how it originated.

I'm not sure how that contradicts anything I said? I was specifically talking about using measurements from HATS (or worse flat-plate couplers) to try and EQ two headphones to sound the same, and pointing out that it's challenging because an individual person's ear naturally deviates somewhat from a standardized ear, and so will have a different transfer function.

Now, if you wanted to say that deviations between a dummy head's HRTF and any given person's HRTF are minimal, that's something we can talk about. I'm not particularly knowledgable in this area, but just a cursory search of the Internet reveals for example this graphic from Wikipedia that seems to indicate that even for a single individual, the HRTF can vary significantly just between their left and right ears.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/FreqHRTF.jpg

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function#/media/File:FreqHRTF.jpg

 

[Graph Feppar]

pwjazz I am not going to EQ by coupler, I will use my ears instead.

 

[pwjazz]

pwjazz I am not going to EQ by coupler, I will use my ears instead.

Yes, my point exactly! I personally use measurements to get me in the right ballpark and then EQ by ear from there. Starting with just my ears is too tedious.

 

[iXFi]

pwjazz I am not going to EQ by coupler, I will use my ears instead.

So Graph, time for a follow up. Did you buy the HD700 and manage to eq them to your liking?

Interestingly, I have both the HD650 and HD700 myself and have tried to eq both to sound similar. To my ears the HD700 sounds better post eq but worse pre eq.

 

[Graph Feppar]

So Graph, time for a follow up. Did you buy the HD700 and manage to eq them to your liking?

Interestingly, I have both the HD650 and HD700 myself and have tried to eq both to sound similar. To my ears the HD700 sounds better post eq but worse pre eq.

No I didnt, I think I have some autoimmune related hearing loss, my hearing rapidly worsened about half year ago and didnt improve since. I pretty much given up on audio, I have just one HD600 and dont plan to buy anything better since with my bad hearing it makes almost no difference, even HD800 sounds like muffled soundstageless unresolving schiit to me now.

I did try the HD700 in shop for like 5 minutes and with my bad hearing all I could tell is that is sounds like HD650 with hole in mids and peak in treble, kind of overly warm upper bass together with bright and harsh teble with distant recessed mids. The deal breaker was ergonomics, too little clamping force and weird cup shape that distributed weight unevenly and as result sealing was very poor. Maybe with the Dekoni pads it will improve since they are thicker I think.

 

[iXFi]

No I didnt, I think I have some autoimmune related hearing loss, my hearing rapidly worsened about half year ago and didnt improve since. I pretty much given up on audio, I have just one HD600 and dont plan to buy anything better since with my bad hearing it makes almost no difference, even HD800 sounds like muffled soundstageless unresolving schiit to me now.

I did try the HD700 in shop for like 5 minutes and with my bad hearing all I could tell is that is sounds like HD650 with hole in mids and peak in treble, kind of overly warm upper bass together with bright and harsh teble with distant recessed mids. The deal breaker was ergonomics, too little clamping force and weird cup shape that distributed weight unevenly and as result sealing was very poor. Maybe with the Dekoni pads it will improve since they are thicker I think.

I'm so sorry to hear that. Every music lovers nightmare. Hope you will continue to enjoy music one way or another!

 

[JJB70]

Sorry to know you're hearing has deteriorated, but hopefully you can still find pleasure in music.

 

[garbulky]

No I didnt, I think I have some autoimmune related hearing loss, my hearing rapidly worsened about half year ago and didnt improve since. I pretty much given up on audio, I have just one HD600 and dont plan to buy anything better since with my bad hearing it makes almost no difference, even HD800 sounds like muffled soundstageless unresolving schiit to me now.

I did try the HD700 in shop for like 5 minutes and with my bad hearing all I could tell is that is sounds like HD650 with hole in mids and peak in treble, kind of overly warm upper bass together with bright and harsh teble with distant recessed mids. The deal breaker was ergonomics, too little clamping force and weird cup shape that distributed weight unevenly and as result sealing was very poor. Maybe with the Dekoni pads it will improve since they are thicker I think.

Oh boy. So sorry to hear about your hearing loss! Though I'm sure not quite to the extent of yours, I have experienced sudden hearing loss and it sucks to miss the enjoyment you normally get. Best wishes!

 

[John B]

I have the 800s and 700. Something went terribly wrong with the 700. I don't consider it an audiophile device and its easily outperformed by headphones half the cost. I'm using a topping dac and a THX 789 but have used other types of rigs too with same outcomes. Almost exclusively listen to acoustic classical though. The 800s BTW best money I've ever spent!

 

[Luke Lemke]

Resurrecting an old thread here. The original question was the difference between the HD 700 and HD 800, both with frequency response "corrected" with EQ. I don't think the question was answered.

I've just got the HD 800S. I really like it but I was not BLOWN AWAY by the soundstage. Everyone says the HD 800 has better soundstage than the HD 700, but no one mentions if they have tried to EQ both headphones and then compared the soundstage. As someone stated here before, the spatial effects of headphones are heavily influenced by the frequency response.

What needs to be done here is to EQ both cans to the Harman curve and then compare them side by side. You can find the HD 700's for a third of the price compared to the HD800 / HD800s, so this is a pretty relevant question.