Equal measurements is not the same as equal sound quality

[MagnusH]

I am a bit surprised that so many people actually believe that measurements can tell everything about sound quality. It would be nice if that was the case though, we could create a sound quality index, and assign a sound quality number between 1 and 100 to all HiFi equipment, and then a sound quality/price index, and everyone could so very easily pick the best HiFi equipment from a budget

Sadly, we can't, since measurements don't tell everything there is about sound quality (even if we simplify sound quality to mean only transparency).

 

[SDC]

I can sing along musics and it gives lifelike details. More than any speaker.

Others call it distortion but fuck it, it is hi-fi and I prefer it

 

[Wombat]

I am a bit surprised that so many people actually believe that measurements can tell everything about sound quality. It would be nice if that was the case though, we could create a sound quality index, and assign a sound quality number between 1 and 100 to all HiFi equipment, and then a sound quality/price index, and everyone could so very easily pick the best HiFi equipment from a budget

Sadly, we can't, since measurements don't tell everything there is about sound quality (even if we simplify sound quality to mean only transparency).

Just stop talking about it and put up some verification.

 

[Thomas savage]

There are threads about this elsewhere, I'm not sure if any kind of constructive end will come of this one. Often issues become conflated and we are left with the same explanations and misunderstandings going round and round.

The idea is to further understanding for all, to do that you must bring something beyond ' what you reckon' .

If you can't do that , please limit things so we don't keep going round in circles.

 

[oldsysop]

Then, and only then, are you in a position to actually argue about my conclusions.

His conclusions have no value.

 

[MagnusH]

You can't prove hearing impressions, but if we didn't use our ears than we should probably finds another hobby than HiFi

However, if you guys actually had listened to the DACs in my example in a transparent HiFi setup, you would also start to wonder why the worse measured DAC sounds so much more transparent.

 

[Wombat]

You can't prove hearing impressions, but if we didn't use our ears than we should probably finds another hobby than HiFi

However, if you guys actually had listened to the DACs in my example in a transparent HiFi setup, you would also start to wonder why the worse measured DAC sounds so much more transparent.

Really. Seriously. Truly. ??? How can we believe you? Give us something.

 

[March Audio]

If a DAC presents more clarity and details, I think its safe to say that that DAC has more transparency. If you believe my hearing is correct or not is another matter, and if you don't feel free to do the comparison yourself using whatever controlled blind test you like. Then, and only then, are you in a position to actually argue about my conclusions.

It's a guaranteed fact that you will be influenced and biased by conducting sighted and uncontrolled comparisons. This is basic and proven science. It's not a case of believing what you say, it's just a case of knowing that your conclusions cannot be trusted to be accurate.

As such there is no point in debating your conclusions. I don't need to do anything further.

 

[March Audio]

You can't prove hearing impressions, but if we didn't use our ears than we should probably finds another hobby than HiFi

However, if you guys actually had listened to the DACs in my example in a transparent HiFi setup, you would also start to wonder why the worse measured DAC sounds so much more transparent.

You can. Subjective analysis can be obtained controlled and scientifically valid ways.

 

[MagnusH]

So thats your answer? I have a listening impression that contradict your view, and your only argument is you don't believe me?

Funny, if I had said the opposite, that the DAC that measured well also sounded more transparent, I am sure you would believe me

 

[March Audio]

However, if you guys actually had listened to the DACs in my example in a transparent HiFi setup, you would also start to wonder why the worse measured DAC sounds so much more transparent.

Take a few minutes to think about what you are saying here.

How do you know what "transparent" sounds like? What is your reference?

 

[March Audio]

So thats your answer? I have a listening impression that contradict your view, and your only argument is you don't believe me?

Funny, if I had said the opposite, that the DAC that measured well also sounded more transparent, I am sure you would believe me

I don't have a view other than I know your opinion cannot be trusted to be accurate.

That's also not really a view and actually a proveable fact.

 

[MagnusH]

So its ok to use measurements to determine if something SOUNDS transparent, but not ok to use ones ear? Tell me, do you actually listen to music, or just look at pretty curves on measure instruments?

And yes, I would easily pass a blind test between the 2 DACs in question, and my conclusion would be the same. But why bother, it takes a lot of time to setup and arrange, and only one of the 2 possible results would be believed anyway.

 

[March Audio]

Assuming your analysis would be true (and I actually think there is an audible difference between these two DACs): Increased clarity over an already transparent gear would be called emphasis in my book, certainly not increasing transparency.

Yes, this is the point. The OP correlates his personal preference (derived under a faulty mechanism) with "transparency". Yet he has no idea what transparant sounds like. He can't as he has no reference.

Therefore the only conclusion he can draw is that he liked one more than the other. That's absolutely fine but it's meaningless beyond his own world and cannot be an indication of quality or transparency.

 

[Wombat]

So thats your answer? I have a listening impression that contradict your view, and your only argument is you don't believe me?

Funny, if I had said the opposite, that the DAC that measured well also sounded more transparent, I am sure you would believe me

No.

 

[solderdude]

You can't prove hearing impressions, but if we didn't use our ears than we should probably finds another hobby than HiFi

You can't prove sighted hearing impressions for sure, but you can prove hearing impressions in controlled testing.
For this all that is needed are the ears and music and proper controls to eliminate possible bias.
One can also enjoy listening and don't care about opinions of others that appear not to agree with your findings.
The 'should probably finds another hobby than HiFi ' is a silly remark that has nothing to do with your personal impressions prevailing over ideas of others.

However, if you guys actually had listened to the DACs in my example in a transparent HiFi setup, you would also start to wonder why the worse measured DAC sounds so much more transparent.

Most likely not.. after I would have noticed substantial differences I would have gotten the idea that I would need to test this in a more scientific sound method. I have done so in the past and this was enlightening.

 

[March Audio]

So its ok to use measurements to determine if something SOUNDS transparent, but not ok to use ones ear? Tell me, do you actually listen to music, or just look at pretty curves on measure instruments?

And yes, I would easily pass a blind test between the 2 DACs in question, and my conclusion would be the same. But why bother, it takes a lot of time to setup and arrange, and only one of the 2 possible results would be believed anyway.

It's OK to use both.

The problem is that you have not used a scientific and controlled method to form your subjective opinion. It's therefore faulty.

You need to accept that fact.

I have tested many audiophiles and the moment controls are introduced they struggle to hear differences. So I wouldnt be so confident.

The second point you are ignoring is that even if you can reliably hear difference between these 2 dacs you still won't be establishing which one is more transparant or indeed higher quality. You have no reference. You may have a preference for one, but again that still doesn't indicate transparency or quality.

I think @Blumlein 88 might have some interesting test tracks for you to listen to and see if you can spot the difference.

 

[pma]

Interestingly enough, "transparency" is a purely subjective measure, without any units defined, without scaling. Even though this fact it is widely used by in-measurement-only believers as an argument. Because the term seems to sound scientific.

 

[pma]

The problem is that you have not used a scientific and controlled method to form your subjective opinion. It's therefore faulty.

You need to accept that fact.

Another fact is that the only way how to apply a "scientific and controlled method" properly is a test above sound files in a technically properly set DAC system, including SW and drivers. Like Foobar ABX with its new protocol and ASIO or WASAPI drivers. Even then there will always be doubts, by some members, that one was cheating.

ABX is impossible to apply properly to hardware tests. Glitches, small DC differences, long time between component exchanges, you name it. Trained person can quite easily get oriented by switching glitches and get the result based on this and not on a sound difference. Oversimplified labelling by "scientific" or "non-scientific" is not helpful. Balanced approach is needed, both extremes are wrong, regardless they are listening-only or measuring-only oriented. Both have caveats.

 

[MagnusH]

The 'should probably finds another hobby than HiFi ' is a silly remark that has nothing to do with your personal impressions prevailing over ideas of others.

Not silly but provoking. Sometimes it seems that people forget what this hobby is all about, which (at least for most of us) is listening to music.

I use my ear to determine how a HiFi setup sounds, and listening objectively is not at all as hard as some of you seems to think (not for me anyway).

But instead of taking my words for it, try it yourself. Take the Yggdrasil for example, looking at the measurement it would seem to be horrible but it sounds very transparent and revealing, far more than many other DACs that measure well.

On the other hand, take the Topping DACs which Amir seem to like. They sound uninspired and boring (at least the one I have as a TV DAC), devoid of life. If that is transparency, I think the recording studio needs to hire better people for mastering.