Epos es14n with 7 inch midwoofer, directivity??

[thewas]

It depends on what you mean by great measurement. Let's talk about bottom-end timing for example....in a halfway sensible alignment, you can tune the port a few Hz up and down and it would not change the roll-off too much. I personally like to tune a tad lower compared with other designers, who want to get the maximum level out of the port. I'll get a flatter roll-off, the other guy more level above tuning, but a steeper roll-off below. I do the lower tuning because I calculate in some room gain and we optimize the timing. It's not easy to explain what timing means.....but sometimes we change the port by one cm and it just locks in. The higher port tuning might look more impressive but can sound boomy and slow. So both measurements look good, but the sound is different.

In my experience such behaviour can be seen both in the time domain and room measurements. Anyway your initial quote was that the smooth directivity via waveguides doesn't work as well in typical living rooms which according to performed controlled listening tests isn't the case.

 

[DSJR]

Most modern typical living rooms (the 'bang on trend' ones anyway), do seem barely damped, bare floor minimalistic style all-but echo chambers which I personally find uncomfortable to be in for any length of time. I suspect that while this domestic trend continues, the last thing you need is a flat lower kilohertz region with wide directivity, especially when used with audiophile sources and amps which themselves may deviate a bit from neutrality (B&W must design the way they do for very good reason, especially as I remember the CM model range used to be pictured in trendy but bare beechwood-furnished rooms and they're a multi-million dollar/pound business so must be doing something right *for their consumers*)

I wish I knew more, but I'm adding to it all the time still and I'm sincerely thankful that @Karl-Heinz Fink has come along to explain more of his thinking here.

One thing which got me to understand 'flatter' speakers more though, was attending orchestral concerts in younger days (massed strings can actually sound 'nasal' rather than 'sweet') and small scale jazz gigs at local pubs (I'm not a jazz fan, but it educated me no end in a musical sense). Even before the often wonderful beer kicked in (!), the sheer 'intensity' of sax, trumpet and drums shows how 'doctored' the sound of many domestic speakers used to be even after the recording and mixing that goes on in a commercial music release. I just hope that the slight deviations that modern speakers retain can be held to tight limits while understanding how they all blend together in-room. I doubt I'll ever have the chance to ever hear the new ES14, but I do wish it well (and look forward eventually to seeing if an active version can take the basic design further - runs for cover ).

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

In my experience such behaviour can be seen both in the time domain and room measurements. Anyway your initial quote was that the smooth directivity via waveguides doesn't work as well in typical living rooms which according to performed controlled listening tests isn't the case.

Please allow me to use my own experience.....did you make such listening tests you have mentioned yourself?

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

Most modern typical living rooms (the 'bang on trend' ones anyway), do seem barely damped, bare floor minimalistic style all-but echo chambers which I personally find uncomfortable to be in for any length of time. I suspect that while this domestic trend continues, the last thing you need is a flat lower kilohertz region with wide directivity, especially when used with audiophile sources and amps which themselves may deviate a bit from neutrality (B&W must design the way they do for very good reason, especially as I remember the CM model range used to be pictured in trendy but bare beechwood-furnished rooms and they're a multi-million dollar/pound business so must be doing something right *for their consumers*)

I wish I knew more, but I'm adding to it all the time still and I'm sincerely thankful that @Karl-Heinz Fink has come along to explain more of his thinking here.

One thing which got me to understand 'flatter' speakers more though, was attending orchestral concerts in younger days (massed strings can actually sound 'nasal' rather than 'sweet') and small scale jazz gigs at local pubs (I'm not a jazz fan, but it educated me no end in a musical sense). Even before the often wonderful beer kicked in (!), the sheer 'intensity' of sax, trumpet and drums shows how 'doctored' the sound of many domestic speakers used to be even after the recording and mixing that goes on in a commercial music release. I just hope that the slight deviations that modern speakers retain can be held to tight limits while understanding how they all blend together in-room. I doubt I'll ever have the chance to ever hear the new ES14, but I do wish it well (and look forward eventually to seeing if an active version can take the basic design further - runs for cover ).

Well said . I'm sure we can find a way to get you in touch with the ES-14N if you want.

 

[thewas]

Please allow me to use my own experience.....did you make such listening tests you have mentioned yourself?

What I have or claim to have experienced isn't important, what is important are well documented controlled listening tests. If you have done such please make them public, anecdotal personal stories won't help the progress of the field.

By the way I am sure your Epos will sound fine, I just doubt they would beat in a controlled listening test a more measurent based approach with a waveguide like for example the Revel M126Be.

 

[dogmamann]

What I have or claim to have experienced isn't important, what is important are well documented controlled listening tests. If you have done such please make them public, anecdotal personal stories won't help the progress of the field.

By the way I am sure your Epos will sound fine, I just doubt they would beat in a controlled listening test a more measurent based approach with a waveguide like for example the Revel M126Be.

I don’t know about 100 subjects based experiment, but my own brother has a revel f35, and also a very old ALR Nummer 4. At this point we have no clue how that measures, only Mr. KH Fink knows as this speakers were developed, more 30 years ago and it’s hard to get any measurements. The revel was bought on my suggestion, after I read lot of good things about it here and online. His chain has a topping e30 dac which is completely satisfied (thanks to the review here) however, despite me telling him “that revel is how it should sound like”, he keeps telling me, over and over that that ALR is on another league. We live in two continents and haven’t met in a year, and I have no clue what set of factors is making him prefere it over a well measured speaker.

But what I am trying to say is, sometimes preferences play a bigger role that what is “generalized” here. It’s bit of an overstatement, that people would only prefer what Tools mentioned. If that was the only way, none of the brands outside Harman group would have survived the time.

 

[ROOSKIE]

By the way I am sure your Epos will sound fine, I just doubt they would beat in a controlled listening test a more measurent based approach with a waveguide like for example the Revel M126Be.

l can say that in my sighted testing of both myself and my girlfriend the Revel M126be is very hard to beat in our subjective opinion above 70 or 80hrz with a 2way design.

I'd love to compare the new Epos and the Revel. I do think the Epos has some beautiful aesthetics and is on my list for speakers to try at some point especially as I am interested in trying to hone in on exactly what folks who don't like well designed waveguides don't like about them.

I really appreciate Mr. Fink chiming in. That said the only currently available speaker I have used that involved some of his efforts is the Wharfedale 12.2 but I really don't like that speaker.
I have used the Boston M25, M340 and M350's and still have the M350's, those I found to all have a strangely compelling quality to the sound I like despite being on the darker side of neutral subjectively and having some port noise issues earlier in the SPL climb vs some others.
The 12.2 just doesn't sound good to me even when really scratching my head and looking for a way to spin it positively. Well anyway, what does that matter here?

But what I am trying to say is, sometimes preferences play a bigger role that what is “generalized” here. It’s bit of an overstatement, that people would only prefer what Tools mentioned. If that was the only way, none of the brands outside Harman group would have survived the time.

Howdy, I think the idea is not that all people will always prefer A to B, rather that all quality audio designs ought to be demonstrated and reality checked in blind, controlled testing by manufacturers.
Even if they do not publish what they find they should at least be checking their work using a method that is sound and sighted testing has major flaws and is not sound. Sighted testing has been demonstrated to be very flawed in numerous venues many many times over many decades reaching well beyond the Audio category.

Myself I am only able to sometimes test my GF. Reality is that blind testing at home is difficult. This is where a manufacturer can assist, though obviously it will still not mean you will end up with what you would pick if you yourself could try things blinded from the product.
One thing that I believe has helped me is that I have tried/tested far more speaker than most consumers and I typically have very little brand allegiance or brand loyalty nor am I typically swayed by pricing as status symbol.(right now I do have a number of Harman products that I like though so note that) I also can try things with my girlfriend and while she loves listening and trying the various speakers she has read absolutely zero about them beforehand. She also is thinks just about everything looks cool so very little seems to sway her by the look alone (she is very easy going). I have generally thought her initial reactions toward many speakers were quite spot on and hearing someone describe the sound who doesn't use a typical audiophile vocab is quite interesting.

So, subjectively, something very interesting just happened to me. I purchased a new computer and was setting it up and immediately noticed it was snappier. At one point I apparently lost track of myself a bit and again was 'noticing how snappy my new laptop is', but I was actually using my old one preparing some data to transfer over. Yet there is no question I perceived the experience of faster responses and yet it sure seems it was fiction of a sort (or a glitch in the matrix).

I also had borrowed my girlfriend's curved monitor while my new one was on its way here. My new one is a 'normal' flat panel. Switched them in the middle of working after FEDEX dropped it the other day and wow did that look like it bowed out well towards me in the middle for a good 20 minutes before my brain 'corrected' it.

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

l can say that in my sighted testing of both myself and my girlfriend the Revel M126be is very hard to beat in our subjective opinion above 70 or 80hrz with a 2way design.

I'd love to compare the new Epos and the Revel. I do think the Epos has some beautiful aesthetics and is on my list for speakers to try at some point especially as I am interested in trying to hone in on exactly what folks who don't like well designed waveguides don't like about them.

I really appreciate Mr. Fink chiming in. That said the only currently available speaker I have used that involved some of his efforts is the Wharfedale 12.2 but I really don't like that speaker.
I have used the Boston M25, M340 and M350's and still have the M350's, those I found to all have a strangely compelling quality to the sound I like despite being on the darker side of neutral subjectively and having some port noise issues earlier in the SPL climb vs some others.
The 12.2 just doesn't sound good to me even when really scratching my head and looking for a way to spin it positively. Well anyway, what does that matter here?

FYI Boston Acoustics

 

[ROOSKIE]

FYI Boston Acoustics

Yes, that is why I mentioned them.

 

[dogmamann]

l can say that in my sighted testing of both myself and my girlfriend the Revel M126be is very hard to beat in our subjective opinion above 70 or 80hrz with a 2way design.

I'd love to compare the new Epos and the Revel. I do think the Epos has some beautiful aesthetics and is on my list for speakers to try at some point especially as I am interested in trying to hone in on exactly what folks who don't like well designed waveguides don't like about them.

I really appreciate Mr. Fink chiming in. That said the only currently available speaker I have used that involved some of his efforts is the Wharfedale 12.2 but I really don't like that speaker.
I have used the Boston M25, M340 and M350's and still have the M350's, those I found to all have a strangely compelling quality to the sound I like despite being on the darker side of neutral subjectively and having some port noise issues earlier in the SPL climb vs some others.
The 12.2 just doesn't sound good to me even when really scratching my head and looking for a way to spin it positively. Well anyway, what does that matter here?



Howdy, I think the idea is not that all people will always prefer A to B, rather that all quality audio designs ought to be demonstrated and reality checked in blind, controlled testing by manufacturers.
Even if they do not publish what they find they should at least be checking their work using a method that is sound and sighted testing has major flaws and is not sound. Sighted testing has been demonstrated to be very flawed in numerous venues many many times over many decades reaching well beyond the Audio category.

X dropped it the other day and wow did that look like it bowed out well towards me in the middle for a good 20 minutes before my brain 'corrected' it.

l can say that in my sighted testing of both myself and my girlfriend the Revel M126be is very hard to beat in our subjective opinion above 70 or 80hrz with a 2way design.

I'd love to compare the new Epos and the Revel. I do think the Epos has some beautiful aesthetics and is on my list for speakers to try at some point especially as I am interested in trying to hone in on exactly what folks who don't like well designed waveguides don't like about them.

I really appreciate Mr. Fink chiming in. That said the only currently available speaker I have used that involved some of his efforts is the Wharfedale 12.2 but I really don't like that speaker.
I have used the Boston M25, M340 and M350's and still have the M350's, those I found to all have a strangely compelling quality to the sound I like despite being on the darker side of neutral subjectively and having some port noise issues earlier in the SPL climb vs some others.
The 12.2 just doesn't sound good to me even when really scratching my head and looking for a way to spin it positively. Well anyway, what does that matter here?



Howdy, I think the idea is not that all people will always prefer A to B, rather that all quality audio designs ought to be demonstrated and reality checked in blind, controlled testing by manufacturers.
Even if they do not publish what they find they should at least be checking their work using a method that is sound and sighted testing has major flaws and is not sound. Sighted testing has been demonstrated to be very flawed in numerous venues many many times over many decades reaching well beyond the Audio category.

Myself I am only able to sometimes test my GF. Reality is that blind testing at home is difficult. This is where a manufacturer can assist, though obviously it will still not mean you will end up with what you would pick if you yourself could try things blinded from the product.
One thing that I believe has helped me is that I have tried/tested far more speaker than most consumers and I typically have very little brand allegiance or brand loyalty nor am I typically swayed by pricing as status symbol.(right now I do have a number of Harman products that I like though so note that) I also can try things with my girlfriend and while she loves listening and trying the various speakers she has read absolutely zero about them beforehand. She also is thinks just about everything looks cool so very little seems to sway her by the look alone (she is very easy going). I have generally thought her initial reactions toward many speakers were quite spot on and hearing someone describe the sound who doesn't use a typical audiophile vocab is quite interesting.

So, subjectively, something very interesting just happened to me. I purchased a new computer and was setting it up and immediately noticed it was snappier. At one point I apparently lost track of myself a bit and again was 'noticing how snappy my new laptop is', but I was actually using my old one preparing some data to transfer over. Yet there is no question I perceived the experience of faster responses and yet it sure seems it was fiction of a sort (or a glitch in the matrix).

I also had borrowed my girlfriend's curved monitor while my new one was on its way here. My new one is a 'normal' flat panel. Switched them in the middle of working after FEDEX dropped it the other day and wow did that look like it bowed out well towards me in the middle for a good 20 minutes before my brain 'corrected' it.

I don’t know why you want to reason a preference of a person as if Harman has advices it fans to disagree with everyone, who prefers another brand on the top of theirs. I personally like the Harman target for headphones, but with speakers I don’t think I have to agree with it. Again, it’s not necessary that everyone has to agree to Dr.Toole.


By the way that monitor thing happens to me too, now I feel flat monitors bend outwards when I look at them

 

[thewas]

I don’t know about 100 subjects based experiment, but my own brother has a revel f35, and also a very old ALR Nummer 4. At this point we have no clue how that measures, only Mr. KH Fink knows as this speakers were developed, more 30 years ago and it’s hard to get any measurements. The revel was bought on my suggestion, after I read lot of good things about it here and online. His chain has a topping e30 dac which is completely satisfied (thanks to the review here) however, despite me telling him “that revel is how it should sound like”, he keeps telling me, over and over that that ALR is on another league. We live in two continents and haven’t met in a year, and I have no clue what set of factors is making him prefere it over a well measured speaker.

But what I am trying to say is, sometimes preferences play a bigger role that what is “generalized” here. It’s bit of an overstatement, that people would only prefer what Tools mentioned. If that was the only way, none of the brands outside Harman group would have survived the time.

Of course individual preference has a scatter but what is interesting for research is the trend, also how many people do a controlled comparison with level matched, loudspeakers placed at the same position and not knowing which one is playing?

I don’t know why you want to reason a preference of a person as if Harman has advices it fans to disagree with everyone, who prefers another brand on the top of theirs. I personally like the Harman target for headphones, but with speakers I don’t think I have to agree with it. Again, it’s not necessary that everyone has to agree to Dr.Toole.

There is no explicit Harman target for loudspeakers like for headphones, Toole's research in over 5 decades showed only that loudspeakers with flat direct sound without resonances and smooth directivity are preferred, thus the PIR of different Harman loudspeakers varies depending on their designed usage, for example Revel vs. JBL M2. Before disagreeing with someone maybe people first should actually read what these people write.

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

Of course individual preference has a scatter but what is interesting for research is the trend, also how many people do a controlled comparison with level matched, loudspeakers placed at the same position and not knowing which one is playing?


There is no explicit Harman target for loudspeakers like for headphones, Toole's research in over 5 decades showed only that loudspeakers with flat direct sound without resonances and smooth directivity are preferred, thus the PIR of different Harman loudspeakers varies depending on their designed usage, for example Revel vs. JBL M2. Before disagreeing with someone maybe people first should actually read what these people write.

I have a lot of respect for what Mr. Toole did, but I don't agree with everything. And yes, I did read everything I could find, I started with target curves on headphones and cars based on his papers plus the statistics of your own room acoustic measurements. If I look into the market for speakers, I can see that a lot of other companies are not so convinced about the waveguide. I don't think they are all not clever enough to design a waveguide. I have no problem with people who like waveguides, but I have a problem to make something like a religion out of it. OK, enough said from my side

 

[Purité Audio]

Perhaps not a question of ability just easier to churn out iterations of the same 50 year old design, spending more on marketing than research.
Sadly only new companies have the desire/will/drive/ability to overturn the old order.
All your designs are passive are they not?
Keith

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

Perhaps not a question of ability just easier to churn out iterations of the same 50 year old design, spending more on marketing than research.
Sadly only new companies have the desire/will/drive/ability to overturn the old order.
All your designs are passive are they not?
Keith

I'm afraid that is not my experience. And you assume that every research will end up with a waveguide ? Who knows, maybe other people also prefer exposed domes?
No, I made and I do active systems. All DSP driven nowadays, but I did monitors for Tannoy using classic A/B stuff. One of the reasons to start FinkTeam and Epos was to escape a bit from the DSP-driven lifestyle systems and the automotive tuning work with a laptop on your knees.

 

[thewas]

If I look into the market for speakers, I can see that a lot of other companies are not so convinced about the waveguide. I don't think they are all not clever enough to design a waveguide. I have no problem with people who like waveguides, but I have a problem to make something like a religion out of it.

Let's be honest, after the fall of the Hifi hobby in the 90s where the largest innovators left "high end" audio has become to the biggest part a cottage industry where mainly pseudoinnovations combined with some nice furnitures are marketed. Toole's research also doesn't enforce a waveguide per se but just a smooth directivity which can be even achieved in different ways.

 

[Purité Audio]

I'm afraid that is not my experience. And you assume that every research will end up with a waveguide ? Who knows, maybe other people also prefer exposed domes?
No, I made and I do active systems. All DSP driven nowadays, but I did monitors for Tannoy using classic A/B stuff. One of the reasons to start FinkTeam and Epos was to escape a bit from the DSP-driven lifestyle systems and the automotive tuning work with a laptop on your knees.

It appears to me that the vast majority of loudspeakers are designed to fit the existing paradigm, passive in a variety of sizes/prices and thus allowing dealers to sell the next upgrade and the next ad nauseam to gullible punters.
I would want to make the finest measuring loudspeaker I possibly could, in my experience the better the measurements the more transparent the speaker.
Keith

 

[dogmamann]

Let's be honest, after the fall of the Hifi hobby in the 90s where the largest innovators left "high end" audio has become to the biggest part a cottage industry where mainly pseudoinnovations combined with some nice furnitures are marketed. Toole's research also doesn't enforce a waveguide per se but just a smooth directivity which can be even achieved in different ways.

You are right about the wave guide thing, you don’t need waveguide to achieve, good directivity, which the Epos already has. Good directivity is a Must if more than one sweet spot in the listening room is needed as per what I read, but if only one seat is what all you need, the same can be achieved on any speaker, given the room has good acoustics, or the speaker has low distortion to handle the eq.

As per the logic of Mr. Toole, KEF should be a good speaker, but to me they are quite mediocre, and there are lots of people who feels the same about them. I agree on Revel, I never heard a “wrong sounding” revel. KEF to me is an example of lot of things done as per science, yet to produce a mediocre product at the end in terms of soundstage width and lack of that airiness.

After spending more than 5k on speakers last year, I realized, that my 30 year old ALR’s are stacking quite well to them, and bettered them in some areas, especially in bass. That’s the reason why I am looking forward on Epos, as it’s designed by the same person.

 

[thewas]

You are right about the wave guide thing, you don’t need waveguide to achieve, good directivity, which the Epos already has.

Yes, its not great but good especially for a 6,5"/1" without one.

Good directivity is a Must if more than one sweet spot in the listening room is needed as per what I read, but if only one seat is what all you need, the same can be achieved on any speaker, given the room has good acoustics, or the speaker has low distortion to handle the eq.

Nope, smooth directivity is as written above also at the sweet spot unless you are listening in an anechoic chamber as you listen even there to both direct and reflected sound. Studio monitors are usually listened in the sweet spot and as you probably have seen by now the best of them do a great effort for very smooth directivity.

As per the logic of Mr. Toole, KEF should be a good speaker, but to me they are quite mediocre, and there are lots of people who feels the same about them. I agree on Revel, I never heard a “wrong sounding” revel. KEF to me is an example of lot of things done as per science, yet to produce a mediocre product at the end in terms of soundstage width and lack of that airiness.

You are again making your own interpretations of him, Toole says you can EQ good directivity loudspeakers to your taste and even writes about the preference of some people of wide radiating loudspeakers especially for mono or stereo. According to him some people prefer more enveloping and some more focused imaging.

 

[dogmamann]

Yes, its not great but good especially for a 6,5"/1" without one.

Nope, smooth directivity is as written above also at the sweet spot unless you are listening in an anechoic chamber as you listen even there to both direct and reflected sound. Studio monitors are usually listened in the sweet spot and as you probably have seen by now the best of them do a great effort for very smooth directivity.

You are again making your own interpretations of him, Toole says you can EQ good directivity loudspeakers to your taste and even writes about the preference of some people of wide radiating loudspeakers especially for mono or stereo. According to him some people prefer more enveloping and some more focused imaging.

There is a a misconception here that Kef does imaging better than other speakers, while they are good, there are loads of speakers that can image well as them, but providing the wider soundstage at the same time. With traditional two ways with wider radiation, you are enveloped still in sound but the envolope is quite huge.

If you read online too much, it’s pretty easy to write off lot of speakers without listening, it’s completely ok, for folks who had listened to different Types of speakers in real and can relate to what they see in those graphs. For others may be someone who just picked up their first speaker a LS50, and never had lived with some other speakers in their life time, is dumb to “assume” things based on the Tooles bible.

 

[Da cynics]

About Waveguides

Some people do not like it. And some people who do good work.
@Dennis Murphy
@kimmosto
I would like to hear your opinion