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Ending the Windows Audio Quality Debate

If you ask a question like this, then CAudioLimiter is either inactive, or not as bad as others described. I can clearly hear the limiting in my specific setup. If you insist, the only way to verify it is to install EQ APO and try it yourself.
Stock Windows volume control -0 dBFS = no audible distortion but shows clipping in Peace
Stock Windows volume control -12 dBFS = no audible distortion but shows clipping in Peace
WASAPI -0 dBFS foobar volume control = audible distortion (Peace shows no info in wasapi)
WASAPI -12 dBFS foobar volume control = no audible distortion (Peace shows no info in wasapi)
EAPO -0 dBFS preamp = no audible distortion but shows clipping in Peace
EAPO -12 dBFS preamp = no audible distortion and no clipping in Peace
 
Very strange. I think foobar got some safety mechanisms intact to avoid clipping, because on other apps i can hear it again even without wasapi... more testing to come :/
 
Very strange. I think foobar got some safety mechanisms intact to avoid clipping, because on other apps i can hear it again even without wasapi... more testing to come :/
You may try to uninstall EQ APO and other similar stuff completely to evaluate the Windows volume control. Also, WASAPI exclusive mode simply clips, CAudioLimiter on the other hand introduces a loudness-war like effect: very compresssed, dense sound, but no clipping, with that test file.
 
One more thing not specific to the OP. I want to address the methodology of evaluating an audio effect plugin by using static test signals. For example this article used RMAA to compare Creative's "Crystalizer" against a Waves plugin:

http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/multimedia/creative-x-fi.html

While both of them resulted in horrendous distortion, it showed nothing useful about which one is "better". For the purpose of this post (verifying the presence of the limiter), using static test signal is totally fine, but for evaluating effects, listening test is the best way.
 
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You may try to uninstall EQ APO and other similar stuff completely to evaluate the Windows volume control. Also, WASAPI exclusive mode simply clips, CAudioLimiter on the other hand introduces a loudness-war like effect: very compresssed, dense sound, but no clipping, with that test file.
Did some more testing and im out of ideas. With testfile "a.mp3":
-foobar2k is the only player with no distortion even at -0 dBFS
-foobar2k WASAPI intruduces distortion like it is in the file
-foobar2k WASAPI -12 dBFS in player fixes the distortion
-every other audioplayer has distortion at -0 dBFS
-every other audioplayer has distortion at -12 dBFS player volume
-every other audioplayer has distortion at -12 dBFS windows volume
-every other audioplayer has distortion at -12 dBFS EqualizerApo preamp
 
Did some more testing and im out of ideas. With testfile "a.mp3":
-foobar2k is the only player with no distortion even at -0 dBFS
-foobar2k WASAPI intruduces distortion like it is in the file
-foobar2k WASAPI -12 dBFS in player fixes the distortion
-every other audioplayer has distortion at -0 dBFS
-every other audioplayer has distortion at -12 dBFS player volume
-every other audioplayer has distortion at -12 dBFS windows volume
-every other audioplayer has distortion at -12 dBFS EqualizerApo preamp
Excellent. So some progresses here. Now, do this without using WASAPI exclusive mode and without EQ APO. Are there differences if you change the "Enable smooth seeking..." box, with all fades set to 0?
Image1.png
 
Excellent. So some progresses here. Now, do this without using WASAPI exclusive mode and without EQ APO. Are there differences if you change the "Enable smooth seeking..." box, with all fades set to 0?
No changes in audio quality for me :confused:
 
I thought I did a pretty good job of framing the risk in the OP, clearly stating that its possible, and I heard and measured issues but YMMV depending on the system (I stated 2 of my 3 systems had no issues).
No, what you did was describe that a potential problem exists/possible under certain conditions. I did not challenge the existence of it but the blanket suggestion to attenuate.

You did not provide the likelihood of such a problem existing or people encountering. Later, you asserted that the problems with the proposed solution does not apply in many cases and therefore the blanket solution valid. But for this blanket solution to be valid and to weight whether the proposed solution is better or worse than the problem, you would need to evaluate whether the problem is likely to occur or the problem with the solution is more likely to occur.

This is what I meant by a quantification of the risk. This is a scientific approach to evaluating a solution when there are trade-offs.

Otherwise, you are like my dentist who describes the worst case of what may happen if I don't do what he suggests and the best case of what may happen if I finance his next car. ;)

It's intent was clear, to ease the minds of those that think Windows audio isn't up to snuff so that they can use it and bypass the risks and save money, and to provide objective proof of the issues and how to get around them to placate the doubters who think Windows audio problems are universally figments of the imagination.
The problem we are discussing of the inter-sample peaks is not a Windows issue. The Windows issues you suggested are those that I agreed with and complimented you on. Don't confuse the issues.

I also provided links to more material that explain when these risks evidence themselves and how, and practices in the recording industry that exacerbate the risk. People can decide for themselves, but the data is the data. No one including you has a study of the extent of the risk but at least I identified the mechanisms and resolutions.
You identified a situation where there are issues with both the problem and the solution. People need to know whether it is worth implementing the solution with its downsides relative to the level of risk posed by the problem (not just that it may exist) including what audible if anything it may have.

However you're doing no one any help by blanket saying they don't exist while blindly ignoring the data presented.
You are being like my dentist confusing existence of a risk with the levl of risk to propose a solution that has its downsides. This was challenged.

It's not clear what your intent is? You aren't addressing anything I wrote concretely, and some of your responses are now bordering on trolling.
:rolleyes:
 
is anyone hearing a improvement? im using my all day apo with music games and everything and i don't have any problem
i turn off the '' use original apo '' and im not sure what i did, but i don't know if i hear anything new or different xD
if i turn off the use original apo, im in bit perfect?
View attachment 107242

In most cases, these will not result in audible improvements because there may not have been a problem in the first place. Say for example, vanilla Windows installations with generic drivers and all Windows effects turned off.

Where it might become an issue is if you have specialized drivers installed for devices (like sound cards) that have their own special effects/surrounds processing or real-time encoding like Dolby Live, or some media players that install some audio processing components as APOs in the audio chain. If those APOs are degrading sound then doing the above will remove them (but also remove any functionality they provided) and might help.

If you don't notice a difference, switch off EAPO so you don't have unnecessary components in the middle.
 
I wonder when it comes to quantification of the risk: As I understand it, the problem in discussion and the risk that it arises depends on the recording in question, but then the risk will be related to which recordings and what type of music you listen to. Given how much popular music is already cutted in the tops, isn't it a bit like trying to throw in the yeast when the dough is already in the oven?
 
This is what I meant by a quantification of the risk. This is a scientific approach to evaluating a solution when there are trade-offs.

Your response is so Orwellian I felt compelled to respond, if only to alleviate the false concerns you raise.

The situation is in fact the opposite of what you state. It was due to the perceived risk of Windows in much of the general community that I investigated it, provided objective evidence to its soundness and provided a simple cost free solution for avoiding it's possible artifacts. I also hope that I eased minds about the resampler, which "common knowledge" stated to stay away from based on 5+ year old tests .

If there is one area where the risk is truly not knowable , its "Hidden APOs". I view this as a bug on my machine. I presented all the evidence and a clear assessment of the risk at my disposal: "My music system and work PCs didn't show this issue…." Indeed my computer may have been 1 in a hundred, or 1 in 10, who knows? However I provided a solution to those that may be concerned about Windows and so are unnecessarily avoiding Windows audio for their HiFi rig.

Your response is so Orwellian because you are in fact raising perceptions of risk with no supporting evidence, unnecessarily sewing concern over a mere 4 dB loss in a 24 bit system, ignoring the evidence to its lack of harm, and providing no evidence of your own all the while having the shame to hide behind the cloak of "science".

My goal in responding isn't to argue with you, as you seem to have some axe to grind and have stopped being rational on this. It's to present a balanced view of the risk to others so that you're unsubstantiated fear mongering doesn't drive people away from trying Windows and saving a few bucks.

The evidence was clearly stated with objective evidence, the solutions offered are all free and people are welcome to try it and decide for themselves.
 
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I wonder when it comes to quantification of the risk: As I understand it, the problem in discussion and the risk that it arises depends on the recording in question, but then the risk will be related to which recordings and what type of music you listen to. Given how much popular music is already cutted in the tops, isn't it a bit like trying to throw in the yeast when the dough is already in the oven?

You could have wide dynamic range music with little compression, open and clean, but mastering could normalize it to near saturation (see examples in my follow up). It may not be worth "fixing" if the rare incidence of CAudiolimiter doesn't seem to cause a problem for you, if you aren't filtering or upsampling. I do all these things so for me, these changes helped.
 
Your response is so Orwellian I felt compelled to respond, if only to alleviate the false concerns you raise.
I think you should leave Orwell out of this because he didn't write what you think he wrote. ;)

The situation is in fact the opposite of what you state. It was due to the perceived risk of Windows in much of the general community that I investigated it, provided objective evidence to its soundness and provided a simple cost free solution for avoiding it's possible artifacts. I also hope that I eased minds about the resampler, which "common knowledge" stated to stay away from based on 5+ year old tests .
You still seem confused about existence for a problem, potential harm, risk and quantification of risk and side-effects of solution.

Here is how science works:
A virus capable of harming a human being can exist. Its existence can be shown with a test/experimentation.
The potential harm it could cause can again be shown in a lab/experimentation regardless of the risk posed by it.
Its risk to humans depends on its mode of transmission, ability to survive enough to harm, natural resistance of humans, the impact of being infected, availability of vaccines, etc., etc.
Quantification of risk is the probability of a person to get infected by such a virus which is known to exist. It could be very low based on the factors above or very high.
A vaccine that can fight the virus can have side-effects.
Not taking anything that has side-effects is the default state for same human beings unless the risk posed by the virus can be quantified (say as a probability) and the cost of infection can be estimated (from being ill to death) and there is a trade-off between the side-effects and the risk.
Saying some people would not have side-effects is not an effective argument for a vaccine to be taken pre-emptively without judging whether one is likely to get it or not and what the effects of it are.

I leave it as an exercise for you to do the appropriate analogies to the above and which of those you have actually done and see why I don't agree with your suggestion for the prophylactic 4dB attenuation.

If there is one area where the risk is truly not knowable , its "Hidden APOs". I view this as a bug on my machine. I presented all the evidence and a clear assessment of the risk at my disposal: "My music system and work PCs didn't show this issue…." Indeed my computer may have been 1 in a hundred, or 1 in 10, who knows? However I provided a solution to those that may be concerned about Windows and so are unnecessarily avoiding Windows audio for their HiFi rig.
You are confusing two different things here -

1. The effect of processing in the chain whether by the Windows Engine or any APOs inserted to alter the content-bits. No one is denying this. The minimal -0.2dB which we already know will fix a guaranteed and known problem exists in Windows is justified for this reason and sufficient. There is no disagreement here.

2. The problem of inter-sample peaks. While a theoretical possibility exists of this problem, there is no evidence that any APO introduces this, or if there is such APOs are found in any general Windows system. So this is just a "could-happen" conjecture. Some content in some badly-mastered content can have inter-sample peaks. However, there is very little evidence that it causes audible problems necessarily. There is no reason to suspect that this is some widespread problem that it needs to be fixed. Your prophylactic solution here is one of suggesting a vaccine without clearly describing the risk of not taking it and saying that the vaccine side-effects don't occur to some people or can be managed. It is a good thing you are not in charge of public health policy (hopefully). :)

Your response is so Orwellian because you are in fact raising perceptions of risk with no supporting evidence, unnecessarily sewing concern over a mere 4 dB loss in a 24 bit system, ignoring the evidence to its lack of harm, and providing no evidence of your own all the while having the shame to hide behind the cloak of "science".
I am not sure what you mean by a 24-bit system. Taking 16-bit content (most CDs) with inter-sample peaks in them and adding zeros to them so you can attenuate them by 4dB isn't a solution. If you are saying use only real 24-bit mastered content, then you are prescribing a solution that is worse than any potential problem. There is very little music content easily available in 24-bits. Downstream DACs already do floating point calculations to worry about whether they are 16-bit or 24-bit content coming in and that does not fix the inter-sample peak problem by just doing that. So, don't know where you are going with this other than obfuscating the issue.

My goal in responding isn't to argue with you, as you seem to have some axe to grind and have stopped being rational on this. It's to present a balanced view of the risk to others so that you're unsubstantiated fear mongering doesn't drive people away from trying Windows and saving a few bucks.
By Orwellian, did you mean to say accusing the other of what one is doing themselves? If so... :facepalm:

I am done with this thread.
 
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Very strange. I think foobar got some safety mechanisms intact to avoid clipping, because on other apps i can hear it again even without wasapi... more testing to come :/

Well it does have replaygain with an 'avoid clipping' option. I assume you are not using this?
 
No. It is just a direct API to the sound device that is devoid of any mixing or resampling capability in the path (except for some fixed 44.1khz resampling in some implementations). So, players that can support ASIO need to be capable of either resampling/mixing on their own or the end device should be so capable or require the users to manually ensure the correct usage of sampling rates and exclusive usage.

As an example, web browsers (and even players like Amazon Music) are not able to do this. They can only send to audio devices in shared mode.

If you only used players with ASIO capability then you would point all of them to use the ASIO access to he sound card, nothing else needs to be done. Parallel access to the same device would fail when one app is using it.
Is it possible to use hifi cable or voicemeeter to do the whole system in ASIO? Or they will still be DS not ASIO? How do you know which one?
 
Well it does have replaygain with an 'avoid clipping' option. I assume you are not using this?
ReplayGain affects both exclusive and shared output. According to his tests, WASAPI exclusive mode clipped but not shared mode, and he said he could not hear any limiting as well, so it is not the case. Also, "avoid clipping" only works for files with stored RG metadata, my test files don't have these data.
 
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