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Monstieur

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I have seen 32bit Integer output devices, but not FLOAT. Been looking for some just out of curiosity, but no luck.
The Thesycon and XMOS USB drivers support both 32-bit float and integer. I don't know if there's a distinction in the Windows sound settings.

RME devices accept 32-bit float natively on macOS. You can see > 0 dBFS overloads on the device, and can attenuate on the device itself to avoid clipping at the analog output without damaging the signal.

Fix has to be applied in pre-mix because the distortion appear to happen during mixing process. That is also why it does not matter what parameters the output device has.
WASAPI operates in 32-bit float, so the mixing should not clip. In another thread, a test was done with +3 dB in Foobar and -4 dB in post-mix. There was no clipping, indicating that CAudioLimiter is not applied until after post-mix.

However, Foobar was outputting 32-bit float. I don't know what happens if iTunes outputs 24-bit integer.
 

edechamps

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How late am I to this thread! You can also achieve the same thing by running a permanent "less than 100 percent" on the main Windows Volume Slider

I don't think that will work on devices that support hardware volume control. In that case the Windows main volume slider acts on the hardware control, not on the digital samples, which means the digital level stays the same and therefore I'd expect the limiter to kick in.
 

Robbo99999

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I don't think that will work on devices that support hardware volume control. In that case the Windows main volume slider acts on the hardware control, not on the digital samples, which means the digital level stays the same and therefore I'd expect the limiter to kick in.
Good point! Is there a way to know if your device is of the "hardware control" you mention?
 

edechamps

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Good point! Is there a way to know if your device is of the "hardware control" you mention?

There's probably a better way, but the one I know is to see if the Windows volume control works in WASAPI Exclusive mode. If hardware volume control is used, then the control will work even on Exclusive streams. If it's not used, then the control won't work since Windows guarantees not to touch digital samples when Exclusive mode is used. (Note that I never actually tried this test, so take my post with a grain a salt.)
 

Propheticus

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Is it not easier established by adjusting your dac/amp volume and seeing whether the Windows volume slider moves accordingly?

Another case where this is not an option: on my Loxjie D30 (xmos driver installed) Windows volume is forced back to 100. Lowering it will be immediately undone.
 

edechamps

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Is it not easier established by adjusting your dac/amp volume and seeing whether the Windows volume slider moves accordingly?

No. The presence and behavior of a physical volume slider on the device has no bearing on how the Windows volume control is implemented internally. You can't draw any conclusion from such an experiment.
 

Robbo99999

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There's probably a better way, but the one I know is to see if the Windows volume control works in WASAPI Exclusive mode. If hardware volume control is used, then the control will work even on Exclusive streams. If it's not used, then the control won't work since Windows guarantees not to touch digital samples when Exclusive mode is used. (Note that I never actually tried this test, so take my post with a grain a salt.)
Well, that's very interesting, I just did this test on my SoundblasterX G6 DAC and in exclusive mode adjusting the Windows Volume Control changed the volume of the playback, and I could tell my EqualiserAPO Harman EQ was being bypassed for that test, so it was certainly in Exclusive Mode, therefore my G6 DAC has got hardware volume control! As you said, that means I can't rely on using the Windows Volume Control to account for intersample overs. I'll make sure I'm accounting for it with a negative preamp in Equaliser APO instead then. On my Topping E30 I haven't tested if that is hardware volume control or not, but to be safe I'll make sure I'm accounting for intersample overs in EqualiserAPO rather than using main Windows Volume Slider.
 

Propheticus

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No. The presence and behavior of a physical volume slider on the device has no bearing on how the Windows volume control is implemented internally. You can't draw any conclusion from such an experiment.
I'll assume you're right. Still in order to understand why (and hopefully learn something) I'll continue with a followup question. Not trying to be stubborn:
If I turn a volume knob which is a rotary encoder to control digital volume (so not an analogue potmeter volume control) on a dac and this volume change in the dac is then also reflected in Windows, why does this not show vice-versa Windows volume slider is controlling the hardware (the dac)?

Or are we talking about different 'hardware' here?
 

Atanasi

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If I turn a volume knob which is a rotary encoder to control digital volume (so not an analogue potmeter volume control) on a dac and this volume change in the dac is then also reflected in Windows, why does this not show vice-versa Windows volume slider is controlling the hardware (the dac)?

Or are we talking about different 'hardware' here?
I tested with Topping E30. It has a USB audio-class mixer to control volume, and this USB mixer is distinct from the volume control shown on the display and controlled with the Topping remote. The Windows volume control maps to the USB volume, and the USB volume works even if the device is in DAC mode, where the displayed volume control is disabled. So, it means the USB receiver of E30 has one volume control and the DAC backend has another.
 

Propheticus

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I tested with Topping E30. It has a USB audio-class mixer to control volume, and this USB mixer is distinct from the volume control shown on the display and controlled with the Topping remote. The Windows volume control maps to the USB volume, and the USB volume works even if the device is in DAC mode, where the displayed volume control is disabled. So, it means the USB receiver of E30 has one volume control and the DAC backend has another.
Interesting. Does this control work in exclusive mode? If yes, we have a hardware (USB) control where indeed my proposed test would fail miserably :p


Perhaps comparable with this volume slider I found in the XMOS settings which functions separate from Windows volume (which is glued fixed at 100) and also does not change the volume setting I see on the DAC/AMP:
1631632504531.png

(works in exclusive mode WASAPI)

I assume positioned after the Windows volume mixer (lower in the stack) and would not help prevent the limiter from kicking in by setting to -6/-7dB.
 
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edechamps

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If I turn a volume knob which is a rotary encoder to control digital volume (so not an analogue potmeter volume control) on a dac and this volume change in the dac is then also reflected in Windows, why does this not show vice-versa Windows volume slider is controlling the hardware (the dac)?

Because these are completely different things that are not necessarily related to each other.

There are devices with no physical volume control pots at all. That tells you nothing about how the Windows volume control is implemented.

There are devices with physical volume control pots that directly act on some additional gain stage in the device and do not affect the Windows volume control in any way. That also tells you nothing about how the Windows volume control is implemented.

And finally there are devices with physical volume control pots where the pot acts on the Windows volume control. All that means is that the volume pot acts as Windows volume control input device, just like the volume keys on your keyboard. That's it. That also tells you nothing about how the Windows volume control is implemented. For all you know, that physical volume pot might only be there as a convenience while the actual gain control is done digitally by Windows. You can't draw any conclusion from that, for the same reason that you can't draw any conclusion from the mere presence of volume keys on your keyboard.
 

xavx

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In shared mode, is there any better approach relating to application volume control vs windows volume control ? (sorry if this was asked before)
Ex: Music player app volume at 100% & Windows volume at 50% vs Music player app at 50% & Windows volume at 100%
Using EQ APO peak meter, looks like App volume is applied before EQ APO while Windows volume is applied after EQ APO
 

AnalogSteph

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In shared mode, is there any better approach relating to application volume control vs windows volume control ? (sorry if this was asked before)
Ex: Music player app volume at 100% & Windows volume at 50% vs Music player app at 50% & Windows volume at 100%
If all you have is exactly one music player and both controls are essentially software, it would not matter much. If you have multiple applications to contend with, however, you'll want to use the master volume as such and the others just to equalize the levels between applications as required.

In these days of float32 audio stacks and 24-bit output, you can basically use digital volume control to your heart's content.
 

Atanasi

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Interesting. Does this control work in exclusive mode? If yes, we have a hardware (USB) control where indeed my proposed test would fail miserably :p
Yes, the USB volume worked in exclusive mode. The USB receiver also detected DoP, which the volume controller did not affect.
 

phoenixsong

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I just downloaded Equaliser APO! Is there a way to disable its EQ feature? Read that it is programmed to be installed with a slight bass boost off the bat
 

Robbo99999

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I just downloaded Equaliser APO! Is there a way to disable its EQ feature? Read that it is programmed to be installed with a slight bass boost off the bat
I can't remember if EqualiserAPO is installed with a sample EQ or not. However, if you look at the bottom of EqualiserAPO window you'll see the Analysis Panel, this is showing you the Total EQ Curve of all the combined filters you have activated, here's the Analysis Panel without any EQ's active, note how it's just a straight black line at 0dB:
Analysis Panel (a).jpg

So basically, you'd switch off the various activated sample EQ's (if indeed it is loaded with any) and you'd want it to look like the above to prove that no EQ's were currently active. Of course then if you activate your own EQ's then that above panel will show a curve that shows the effect of all your filters, so it will no longer be a straight black line, but instead something like this:
HD600 Analysis Panel Oratory.jpg
 

phoenixsong

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Thanks for the replies- I tried out accessing the "Editor" function and it seems to match the picture above. However, disabling enhancements directly via sound devices does the job as well :D

So far I am blown away by the sound clarity on my Motu M2 after some initial accustomisation to the new sound. Tracks which were a mesh of treble notes can now have their individual instruments clearly distinguished in the mix. A vague sense of direction from audio cues in gaming previously has become razor sharp- pinpoint accuracy would not be an understatement. Due to the lowered distortion, I sometimes get the impression that bass is reduced due to the absence of any congestion, so now I finally understand why Amir likes his bass as such :p Prior to installing it, there was noticeable improvement going from the MH750 to the Aria, but I felt like I wouldn't get much improvement if any at all upgrading from the Aria. Now even the $10 MH750 performs like a beast. Can't wait to hear my headphone collection again (THX00 Ebony etc.), it's been years since I last heard them
 

Robbo99999

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Thanks for the replies- I tried out accessing the "Editor" function and it seems to match the picture above. However, disabling enhancements directly via sound devices does the job as well :D

So far I am blown away by the sound clarity on my Motu M2 after some initial accustomisation to the new sound. Tracks which were a mesh of treble notes can now have their individual instruments clearly distinguished in the mix. A vague sense of direction from audio cues in gaming previously has become razor sharp- pinpoint accuracy would not be an understatement. Due to the lowered distortion, I sometimes get the impression that bass is reduced due to the absence of any congestion, so now I finally understand why Amir likes his bass as such :p Prior to installing it, there was noticeable improvement going from the MH750 to the Aria, but I felt like I wouldn't get much improvement if any at all upgrading from the Aria. Now even the $10 MH750 performs like a beast. Can't wait to hear my headphone collection again (THX00 Ebony etc.), it's been years since I last heard them
If you disable "enhancements" doesn't that mean that EqualiserAPO has no effect?, in which case what's the point in installing & running it? To turn off active filters in Equaliser APO you click the "Standby" looking buttons that are to the left of each filter or configuration file:
Analysis Panel(b).jpg

The black filled-in standby buttons are meaning it's turned off. The white filled-in standby buttons are meaning it's turned on.
 
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