Endgame passive bookshelf shootout: KEF Reference 1 Meta vs. Ascilab S6B

[Goldhamster916]

The room is not big and 2-way with 6.5" woofer will fit fine there - you'll get 45Hz -3dB, your small room will add support on bass and you will not feel lack of bass. You'll get same with Kef Ref1 or Purifi 6.5-based speakers.
Sure, if you want a kick in chest you need to go to higher caliber for woofer.

Kef Ref 1: while it measures well I cannot listen them long - there is something what start to irritate my ears.

Purifi PTT6.5W Alu based speakers: they are nice drivers, but you cant fool physics - mms is more then twice higher if compared to SB Satori MW16 drivers, the midrange will not be that good and detailed, while Purifi's bass and power handling will be better then Satori MW16. If you for "soundpressure", and mostly listen to pop where you need to feel base then Purifi-based speakers is what you need.

If you want retrieve more music details and get a speaker what will please you I suggest custom builds based on SB Satori drivers.
With your budget you may go with re-workerd SB ARA with Beryllium tweeter and MW16TX-4 Textreme woofer.
SB Acoustics ARA Beryllium dome Textreme Light Edition - FineTuning by StereoArt
or
SB Acoustics ARA Beryllium dome Textreme TOP Edition - FineTuning by StereoArt
TOP edition is my favourite bookshelf and can compete with many from crazy-priced high-end 2-ways of a same size.
Will cost less then Kefs or Ascilabs, will measure same or better, but definely will be more interesting to listen. Drivers and internal components are unbeatable top-level products.

I appreciate the alternatives but without independent (klippel) data I wouldn’t buy any of those.

 

[Maxim-ICOM]

a 6.5” alu cone PTT woofer can reach an F3 of 33Hz.

"Extended Woofer" version yes, but PTT6.5W04-NAA-08 not.

 

[Lars Risbo]

true - it can do an F3 of 40.6Hz.

 

[Maxim-ICOM]

Mms: has no influence on the midrange - increasing Mms lowers F3 at the expense of lower sensitivt but does not affect the midrange. it’s a very common misunderstanding that we addressed in a blog post (not sure if link are allowed here)

Disagree here. It is all about physics. Lower mass = less inetia = motor can operate easily to move the cone.

 

[Lars Risbo]

yes, all about physics. sound pressure is generated by the acceleration of the cone and increasing its mass only reduces the acceleration proportionally and this is at all frequencies. Increasing Mms does not in any way degrade midrange performance. its a very common misconception that is hard to eradicate.

 

[Jonazkur]

The room is not big and 2-way with 6.5" woofer will fit fine there - you'll get 45Hz -3dB, your small room will add support on bass and you will not feel lack of bass. You'll get same with Kef Ref1 or Purifi 6.5-based speakers.
Sure, if you want a kick in chest you need to go to higher caliber for woofer.

Kef Ref 1: while it measures well I cannot listen them long - there is something what start to irritate my ears.

Purifi PTT6.5W Alu based speakers: they are nice drivers, but you cant fool physics - mms is more then twice higher if compared to SB Satori MW16 drivers, the midrange will not be that good and detailed, while Purifi's bass and power handling will be better then Satori MW16. If you for "soundpressure", and mostly listen to pop where you need to feel base then Purifi-based speakers is what you need.

If you want retrieve more music details and get a speaker what will please you I suggest custom builds based on SB Satori drivers.
With your budget you may go with re-workerd SB ARA with Beryllium tweeter and MW16TX-4 Textreme woofer.
SB Acoustics ARA Beryllium dome Textreme Light Edition - FineTuning by StereoArt
or
SB Acoustics ARA Beryllium dome Textreme TOP Edition - FineTuning by StereoArt
TOP edition is my favourite bookshelf and can compete with many from crazy-priced high-end 2-ways of a same size.
Will cost less then Kefs or Ascilabs, will measure same or better, but definely will be more interesting to listen. Drivers and internal components are unbeatable top-level products.

Those designs dont prob dont have as good and smooth DI compared to kef or ascilab (no waveguide and xo at 3k which is too high for that woofer). And seem really expensive imo.

 

[Marc v E]

@Goldhamster916 years ago I went for listening tests on speakers, trying to find the best. I ended up buying a pair I hadn't thought of before, but something made me instantly like them. I liked their sound, could listen to them for hours. I liked their looks. I liked that they were so easy to live with and integrate in my home.

Now, after 15 years they served me well, I learned a few things I would like to share:
- start with a well measuring speaker but always listen to them before you buy.
- state of the art doesn't matter to me that much as long as they have bass until 30 hz and a nice even frequency response
- looks are important if you live with them for years to come
- practicality/ease of use is important in the long run

The last two equally or even more than state of the art to me.

If you want to resell, a well-known brand is important.

Placing speakers in another room, or even a different position in the same room, will make them sound markedly different. Only dsp/eq can mitigate this. Solving it, not sure. But the mind will adapt to the new sound.

Anyway, what I want to tell is that my experience is that moving house will lead to different and new furniture because the bigger size requires bigger furniture pieces. Often making the previous furniture look awkwardly small. The same will apply to speakers, more or less. And amplifiers.

Long story short: buy the best speaker for your current room. Spend most on speakers, use eq/dsp. And imo and ime looks and ease of use matter a lot more than I thought.

 

[pat355]

@Goldhamster916 years ago I went for listening tests on speakers, trying to find the best. I ended up buying a pair I hadn't thought of before, but something made me instantly like them. I liked their sound, could listen to them for hours. I liked their looks. I liked that they were so easy to live with and integrate in my home.

Now, after 15 years they served me well, I learned a few things I would like to share:
- start with a well measuring speaker but always listen to them before you buy.
- state of the art doesn't matter to me that much as long as they have bass until 30 hz and a nice even frequency response
- looks are important if you live with them for years to come
- practicality/ease of handling is important in the long run

The last two equally or even more than state of the art to me.

If you want to resell, a well-known brand is important.

Placing speakers in another room, or even a different position in the same room, will make them sound markedly different. Only dsp/eq can mitigate this. Solving it, not sure. But the mind will adapt to the new sound.

Anyway, what I want to tell is that my experience is that moving house will lead to different and new furniture because the bigger size requires bigger furniture pieces. Often making the previous furniture look awkwardly small. The same will apply to speakers, more or less. And amplifiers.

Long story short: buy the best speaker for your current room. Spend most on speakers, use eq/dsp. And imo and ime looks and ease of use matter a lot more than I thought.

cool story. For whatever reason it reminded me of the first "luxury" watch I bought at age 28. I wanted to reward myself for good results achieved and so I went to a watch shop in Paris with the firm intention to buy the watch of my dream since I was 14, the Breitling Navitimer. I spent 1h30 in the shop and bought an IWC Portuguese, LOL....it was (obviously) love at first sight.
I never regretted that purchase, and couldn't even look at a Breitling thereafter (any of them for that matter). Looks do matter, and the "feeling" your senses experience with such an object when in your hands (or ears). The Navitimer did absolutely nothing for me and there was something unique about the Portuguese...but I digress.

 

[Maxim-ICOM]

I appreciate the alternatives but without independent (klippel) data I wouldn’t buy any of those.

Klippel nice tool, but it is not the god to pray. In my first post in your thread I pointed, that the graphs will not tell you full truth, even if it measured with Klippel.

For me what I see in reviews is not that exact what I want to see while evaluating speakers.

Those colored spinoramas are too smoothed, color shift in many is 3db and for me it is too far to show what speaker is.
CDS graphs and "estimated in-room" - not very usefull if we review speaker itself, but we see here speaker+room or "some" estimated room.
THD: this one is uncomparable between speakers, I see there is a lot of measuremnts published and all are with different SPL. Probably pressure is stanbdartized, but waht a point to load speaker with pressure if it is not supposed to work with that power? Sure we will see bad numbers there.

Do not see the info about time: for me it is most important one in speaker measurements. Speaker is set of transducers what should be aligned in time. Flat FR can be achived even when drivers have quite serious phase shift, but how it will sound FR will not show even if FR very flat. Off-axiss may show some problem, but not a full truth. Indeed some speaker designs suppose to have bad off-axis due to 1st order crossover designs, and definetly measurements will show terrible vertical off-axis, while speakes sound pleasant and more then acceptable to ears.

 

[Maxim-ICOM]

true - it can do an F3 of 40.6Hz.

In some conditions yes, but If I would build passive 2-way with this driver, I will use ~10.5L box with ~40Hz tune and passive crososver serial coil DCR 0.4Ohm and it will give me 45Hz -3dB.

All is relative in this world

 

[MarkS]

I spent 1h30 in the shop and bought an IWC Portuguese

Excellent choice!

 

[Goldhamster916]

@Goldhamster916 years ago I went for listening tests on speakers, trying to find the best. I ended up buying a pair I hadn't thought of before, but something made me instantly like them. I liked their sound, could listen to them for hours. I liked their looks. I liked that they were so easy to live with and integrate in my home.

Now, after 15 years they served me well, I learned a few things I would like to share:
- start with a well measuring speaker but always listen to them before you buy.
- state of the art doesn't matter to me that much as long as they have bass until 30 hz and a nice even frequency response
- looks are important if you live with them for years to come
- practicality/ease of use is important in the long run

The last two equally or even more than state of the art to me.

If you want to resell, a well-known brand is important.

Placing speakers in another room, or even a different position in the same room, will make them sound markedly different. Only dsp/eq can mitigate this. Solving it, not sure. But the mind will adapt to the new sound.

Anyway, what I want to tell is that my experience is that moving house will lead to different and new furniture because the bigger size requires bigger furniture pieces. Often making the previous furniture look awkwardly small. The same will apply to speakers, more or less. And amplifiers.

Long story short: buy the best speaker for your current room. Spend most on speakers, use eq/dsp. And imo and ime looks and ease of use matter a lot more than I thought.

I appreciate the advice. Just a year ago I was all about Performance and wouldn’t let ästhetics count as an argument. But I realized it is part of the package and does have a influence on me, no matter if I admit it or not. In that regard the KEF would fit more nicely into my small home theatre since I already have the LS50 meta as surrounds and it might also be less distracting from the screen because it doesent have the black purify drivers on white background (I would choose either speaker in white) and rather large passive radiators on its side. Plus that Uni-Q looks really cool. I just wish it was a bit cheaper.

 

[Marc v E]

I appreciate the advice. Just a year ago I was all about Performance and wouldn’t let ästhetics count as an argument. But I realized it is part of the package and does have a influence on me, no matter if I admit it or not. In that regard the KEF would fit more nicely into my small home theatre since I already have the LS50 meta as surrounds and it might also be less distracting from the screen because it doesent have the black purify drivers and on white background (I would choose either speaker in white) and rather large passive radiators on its side. Plus that Uni-Q looks really cool. I just wish it was a bit cheaper.

After a few months/years I tend to forget about the price. The looks stay the same.

 

[Svend P]

it’s a very common misunderstanding that we addressed in a blog post (not sure if link are allowed here)

I think it is allowed. This is a good read:

A fast driver needs a light cone. Or does it?

purifi-audio.com

 

[Goldhamster916]

After a few months/years I tend to forget about the price. The looks stay the same

Your perspective helps, thank you!

 

[Jonazkur]

Klippel nice tool, but it is not the god to pray. In my first post in your thread I pointed, that the graphs will not tell you full truth, even if it measured with Klippel.

For me what I see in reviews is not that exact what I want to see while evaluating speakers.

Those colored spinoramas are too smoothed, color shift in many is 3db and for me it is too far to show what speaker is.
CDS graphs and "estimated in-room" - not very usefull if we review speaker itself, but we see here speaker+room or "some" estimated room.
THD: this one is uncomparable between speakers, I see there is a lot of measuremnts published and all are with different SPL. Probably pressure is stanbdartized, but waht a point to load speaker with pressure if it is not supposed to work with that power? Sure we will see bad numbers there.

Do not see the info about time: for me it is most important one in speaker measurements. Speaker is set of transducers what should be aligned in time. Flat FR can be achived even when drivers have quite serious phase shift, but how it will sound FR will not show even if FR very flat. Off-axiss may show some problem, but not a full truth. Indeed some speaker designs suppose to have bad off-axis due to 1st order crossover designs, and definetly measurements will show terrible vertical off-axis, while speakes sound pleasant and more then acceptable to ears.

Those graphs tou posted were only on axis responses. You need full 360degree polars to see real performance. Polar heatmap will tell you alot. You cant see in your graphs you posted how wide the speaker radiates sound and how even is the dispersion.

 

[Maxim-ICOM]

Those graphs tou posted were only on axis responses. You need full 360degree polars to see real performance. Polar heatmap will tell you alot. You cant see in your graphs you posted how wide the speaker radiates sound and how even is the dispersion.

Not very informative for me to have 360dgrees colored graph.
It is enough to have 0-15-30-45 lines for horizontal and -15-0+15+30+45 for vertical, as it will show the trend, how speaker behaves and what to expect.
And sure nice to see phase response at those angels.
Also it is important to see the response differences on a certain frequencies.

That kind of graphs with different colors I see have too big steps between colors - this shows me that speaker have soundpressure 74-80db within 30-40degrees.
6db gaps is too big step to make any conclusion how good speaker is. Only rough estimation if its "total crap" or "acceptable",
For me this kind of data presentation give too rough estimation what speaker is - the truth is too far to see it here.

 

[Jonazkur]

Not very informative for me to have 360dgrees colored graph.
It is enough to have 0-15-30-45 lines for horizontal and -15-0+15+30+45 for vertical, as it will show the trend, how speaker behaves and what to expect.
And sure nice to see phase response at those angels.
Also it is important to see the response differences on a certain frequencies.

That kind of graphs with different colors I see have too big steps between colors - this shows me that speaker have soundpressure 74-80db within 30-40degrees.
6db gaps is too big step to make any conclusion how good speaker is. Only rough estimation if its "total crap" or "acceptable",
For me this kind of data presentation give too rough estimation what speaker is - the truth is too far to see it here.

Usually graphs are 3db steps and you need def more than +-45 degrees 90 is min for me.. Many speakers radiate sound +-60 or more. You need to see where -6db point is. This kind of graph shows accurately how the speaker radiates sound and you can see -6db point at yellow. You can adjust the polar scale how you want.

 

[Maxim-ICOM]

Usually graphs are 3db steps and you need def more than +-45 degrees 90 is min for me.. Many speakers radiate sound +-60 or more. You need to see where -6db point is. This kind of graph shows accurately how the speaker radiates sound and you can see -6db point at yellow. You can adjust the polar scale how you want.

In fact this "traffic light" does not show how good speaker is. 3db step is too much. If you would make 2 gated and unsmoothed graphs - one is vertical and another horizontal with 0-15-30-45 lines for horizontal and -15-0+15+30+45 for vertical and add there phase response it will give more info for me about the speaker.

 

[kharan]

In fact this "traffic light" does not show how good speaker is. 3db step is too much. If you would make 2 gated and unsmoothed graphs - one is vertical and another horizontal with 0-15-30-45 lines for horizontal and -15-0+15+30+45 for vertical and add there phase response it will give more info for me about the speaker.

All of them are available for both mentioned speakers. They come from the same sources that the isobar charts were taken from.