Endgame passive bookshelf shootout: KEF Reference 1 Meta vs. Ascilab S6B

[Puddingbuks]

Why not a pair of genelec 8361a if you are going for kef reference 1 kind of money?

 

[Goldhamster916]

Why not a pair of genelec 8361a if you are going for kef reference 1 kind of money?

i did consider them for a long time and they are close but I just don’t like them enough ästhetically compared to the other 2 options

 

[Puddingbuks]

i did consider them for a long time and they are close but I just don’t like them enough ästhetically compared to the other 2 options

Dutch & Dutch 8c?

Ggntkt M3 - stretching the budget, but hey, you can save on amps and stuff..

 

[Goldhamster916]

Dutch & Dutch 8c?

Ggntkt M3 - stretching the budget, but hey, you can save on amps and stuff..

i appreciate the recommendation- And yes its a great speaker but i dont have the budget for it and really dont like the increased number of points of failures in actrive designs, esepcially since i inted to keep the next speaker for a very long time

 

[geox]

There is the amphion krypton 3x which costs 20k and I am not sure how that one performance otherwise. I think I have seen one other one time but I am not sure. I wish there was a larger market for passive cardioid. A passive cardioid mini blade would be my dream.

You can "hack" one with S6B and SVS Micro on a stand - right behind S6B, creating the full range point source. You'll need a avr / amp with dirac dlbc and art tighten the frequency ranges up.

 

[Goldhamster916]

You can "hack" one with S6B and SVS Micro on a stand - right behind S6B, creating the full range point source. You'll need a avr / amp with dirac dlbc and art tighten the frequency ranges up.

Now this is a interesting idea. Is there a thread or something with more details on how to properly set it up?

 

[pablolie]

I am surprised no one mentions that one you can get right away, the other one's availability seems an ongoing topic. So it seems a theoretical discussion to a certain degree. If it's urgent, I'd do the Ref1. It is a fantastic speaker. Both are unusual "bookshelf" speakers inasmuch as that they are full range, which may be a bit challenging in a small room - that's the one thing I'd caution.

 

[kharan]

Now this is a interesting idea. Is there a thread or something with more details on how to properly set it up?

I wouldn't do that. If you choose a sensible crossover for the S6B like 80 Hz, not only the S6B can handle this crossover point at ear-splitting volumes, but the human ear isn't sensitive to bass location* at that frequency, so the point source character of the bass driver position is irrelevant, and you can move the subwoofers around the room to reduce room mode issue.

*Bass location, not envelopment which might need multiples sources of bass in a room.

 

[pablolie]

I wouldn't do that. If you choose a sensible crossover for the S6B like 80 Hz, not only the S6B can handle this crossover point at ear-splitting volumes, but the human ear isn't sensitive to bass location* at that frequency, so the point source character of the bass driver position is irrelevant, and you can move the subwoofers around the room to reduce room mode issue.

This is something I struggle with, though. If I drop money on top speakers it often *is* because their ability to be close to full range. And then I go defeat it and basically emasculate them to fit in the room? I'd just go for clean speakers with no subsonic end and pair them with a sub. Seems wasteful to me. From 150Hz to 20K, the LS50 (and several others) are just as good, probably. Prolly even 80Hz depending on the SPL you feel you need to drive.

PS: Corrected a brain fart, it was subsonic I meant.

 

[kharan]

This is something I struggle with, though. If I drop money on top speakers it often *is* because their ability to be close to full range. And then I go defeat it and basically emasculate them to fit in the room? I'd just go for clean speakers with no ultrasonic end and pair them with a sub. Seems wasteful to me. From 150Hz to 20K, the LS50 (and several others) are just as good, probably. Prolly even 80Hz depending on the SPL you feel you need to drive.

I was just responding to the idea of creating a virtual full range point source speaker with S6B and SVS Micro, I highly doubt OP has any need for that amount of SPL in their room.

 

[mglobe]

I’ve been quietly watching this thread, and refrained from commenting because my opinion is no doubt influenced by having gone from a pair of R3’s to Reference 1 Meta’s. Both have been run with a pair of Rythmik L12 subs. The jump from R3’s to the Reference 1 Meta’s was significant. It’s pretty much impossible to not hear the difference. FWIW, I picked up the Reference 1’s for sixty cents on the dollar off of USAudiomart. I don’t think there’s been anyone that’s come to listen (some knowledgeable in audio, some not) who have not uttered “holy crap” at some point while listening to music on the system. I went from Dirac Live via MiniDSP to Trinnov Nova after about a year with the Reference 1’s, and got a further very audible uplift. I’m sure there are other speakers as good, or maybe better, but I’m also sure that few people would be disappointed after purchasing a pair.

Don’t recall where the OP is located, but I’d recommend if possible that you find a place where you can hear the KEF’s. If you do, you will be able to purchase them with confidence.

All that you read in this post is worth at least the price that you paid.

 

[Goldhamster916]

I am surprised no one mentions that one you can get right away, the other one's availability seems an ongoing topic. So it seems a theoretical discussion to a certain degree. If it's urgent, I'd do the Ref1. It is a fantastic speaker. Both are unusual "bookshelf" speakers inasmuch as that they are full range, which may be a bit challenging in a small room - that's the one thing I'd caution.

I think with a sub and Dirac art and some bass traps I can handle the bass below 150hz at least we’ll enough.

I wouldn't do that. If you choose a sensible crossover for the S6B like 80 Hz, not only the S6B can handle this crossover point at ear-splitting volumes, but the human ear isn't sensitive to bass location* at that frequency, so the point source character of the bass driver position is irrelevant, and you can move the subwoofers around the room to reduce room mode issue.

*Bass location, not envelopment which might need multiples sources of bass in a room.

you are right in that there is less benefit than I thought. I somehow thought the suggestion was to create a cardioid design that way whixh of course doesent work for multiple reasons, one is that the sub can’t really handle the 200-500hz area well where the speakers are already starting to get omnidirectional. I guess my wishful thinking interfered there.

This is something I struggle with, though. If I drop money on top speakers it often *is* because their ability to be close to full range. And then I go defeat it and basically emasculate them to fit in the room? I'd just go for clean speakers with no subsonic end and pair them with a sub. Seems wasteful to me. From 150Hz to 20K, the LS50 (and several others) are just as good, probably. Prolly even 80Hz depending on the SPL you feel you need to drive.

PS: Corrected a brain fart, it was subsonic I meant.

I fully agree, I already have the LS50 Meta with a sub and while I am not even sure that the reference 1 will sound better the LS50 just aren’t a complete speaker to me and I really like to look at a speaker and know that it can handle everything I want to hear decently well even if the LS50 with sub makes so much more sense from a value perspective .

I rarely listen at more than 70db. Maybe 75 if I really crank it. I like the idea of having a small full range speaker for that volume, which then should also help for a more even bass response. A sub will then be used to play below 30hz where both of these speakers really start to struggle and use the sub to fill in nulls via Dirac art.

I’ve been quietly watching this thread, and refrained from commenting because my opinion is no doubt influenced by having gone from a pair of R3’s to Reference 1 Meta’s. Both have been run with a pair of Rythmik L12 subs. The jump from R3’s to the Reference 1 Meta’s was significant. It’s pretty much impossible to not hear the difference. FWIW, I picked up the Reference 1’s for sixty cents on the dollar off of USAudiomart. I don’t think there’s been anyone that’s come to listen (some knowledgeable in audio, some not) who have not uttered “holy crap” at some point while listening to music on the system. I went from Dirac Live via MiniDSP to Trinnov Nova after about a year with the Reference 1’s, and got a further very audible uplift. I’m sure there are other speakers as good, or maybe better, but I’m also sure that few people would be disappointed after purchasing a pair.

Don’t recall where the OP is located, but I’d recommend if possible that you find a place where you can hear the KEF’s. If you do, you will be able to purchase them with confidence.

All that you read in this post is worth at least the price that you paid.

I appreciate the comment!

I have already listened to the Reference 1 Meta multiple times and I liked them very, very much and would definetely be happy with them. However now looking at the measurements (and the price) of the S6B I wonder if it would be the better option. I wish I could listen to them side by side. I can’t even really believe that something could sound better than a reference 1 meta
when played within its limits, but who knows maybe the S6B does. Since I basically saved every single disposable cent over the last 5 years for this purchase I really want to get the optimal outcome.

 

[pablolie]

I think with a sub and Dirac art and some bass traps I can handle the bass below 150hz at least we’ll enough.

Naturally I want you to enjoy your choice to the most, and our hobby shall always have a personal element of "I want this" and that's that.

My point was only that... if you know these speakers may provide too much bass for your environment, why not pick a more room appropriate solution that may very well sound the very same instead? I know I was just saying in another topic that cost is never one of my top buying decision factors.

I have a personal experience about the topic. I am finally selling the full range speakers I had in my previous, large listening room. They sounded awesome where I lived pre-divorce. They sounded *awful* in my new, more minimalist environment. Nothing I could do, just too large, I sat too close, and of course looked a bit ridiculous. Why would I keep 20k speakers that were all about providing full range when I had to completely neuter them in the bass region? I didn't. They spent the last 10+ years in storage and they deserve better. They are selling for 12c on the $ I bought them for. But I am glad they'll perform, I made sure to sell them to someone that has a big room where they can "breathe".

May be a meaningless story to you - I hope you fully enjoy your choice!

 

[Goldhamster916]

Naturally I want you to enjoy your choice to the most, and our hobby shall always have a personal element of "I want this" and that's that.

My point was only that... if you know these speakers may provide too much bass for your environment, why not pick a more room appropriate solution that may very well sound the very same instead? I know I was just saying in another topic that cost is never one of my top buying decision factors.

I have a personal experience about the topic. I am finally selling the full range speakers I had in my previous, large listening room. They sounded awesome where I lived pre-divorce. They sounded *awful* in my new, more minimalist environment. Nothing I could do, just too large, I sat too close, and of course looked a bit ridiculous. Why would I keep 20k speakers that were all about providing full range when I had to completely neuter them in the bass region? I didn't. They spent the last 10+ years in storage and they deserve better. They are selling for 12c on the $ I bought them for. But I am glad they'll perform, I made sure to sell them to someone that has a big room where they can "breathe".

May be a meaningless story to you - I hope you fully enjoy your choice!

I appreciate the advice and your story.

I think it boils down the question of rather having a suboptimal bass response or rather having less bass so it can’t cause issues. I rather prefer ghe first option. And I also think the bass can be managed good enough with Dirac and sub that it will be balanced enough. I don’t think any of those speakers are overdimensional for my room ästhetically. I had the reference 5 (non meta) before, now that speaker was ridiculously large for that room but, believe it or not, except one larger null at 150hz I got basically a flat response to 25hz.

 

[Goldhamster916]

given the excellent horizontal radiaton and early reflections and the very decent vertical radiation of the S6B, how much does it matter that it’s not a coaxial like the reference 1? Could there still be a substantial imaging advantage on the reference 1?

 

[Jonazkur]

given the excellent horizontal radiaton and early reflections and the very decent vertical radiation of the S6B, how much does it matter that it’s not a coaxial like the reference 1? Could there still be a substantial imaging advantage on the reference 1?

In my experience imaging is related more to good pair matching in speakers and how much direct sound you get to listening position. So Kef could have better imaging bcouse narrower dispersion compared to s6b. Kef is about +-50 degrees hor compared to ascilabs +-60/70 so there is a big difference in reverberated sound. My diy speakers are constant +-45 degrees and imaging is prob best i have heard in my room.

 

[Jazigo]

I already have the LS50 Meta with a sub

I have listened to the LS50 Meta vs the R3 Meta and I want to love the R3 Meta, but when listening to music, the goddamn LS 50 Meta wins every time. Since, you already own LS 50 Meta and listen to low volumes (75db or less), then I don't believe that there is much more to be had than the LS 50 Meta.

 

[geox]

I wouldn't do that. If you choose a sensible crossover for the S6B like 80 Hz, not only the S6B can handle this crossover point at ear-splitting volumes, but the human ear isn't sensitive to bass location* at that frequency, so the point source character of the bass driver position is irrelevant, and you can move the subwoofers around the room to reduce room mode issue.

*Bass location, not envelopment which might need multiples sources of bass in a room.

Blades are effectively full range speakers - 30hz onwards .

kef would not have gone through the trouble for designing super small subs directly behind the coaxial drivers if it didnt make any difference.
There was a thread here that was gushing about the unique blade sound. cant find it now :/

 

[Puddingbuks]

Did one of you ever compare with the Kef LS60?

 

[kharan]

Blades are effectively full range speakers - 30hz onwards .

kef would not have gone through the trouble for designing super small subs directly behind the coaxial drivers if it didnt make any difference.
There was a thread here that was gushing about the unique blade sound. cant find it now :/

The Reference 1 and the S6B are also full range in a 20-25 m2 room.

The Blades also use a 5.25" woofer, of which the centre doesn't contribute to the sound emitted. While it is undoubtedly a superb driver, it cannot produce mid-bass at the SPL levels required for the larger rooms this speaker is also going to be placed in. If the crossover was placed at 80 Hz, the placement of the side woofers in the Blades matter because they are crossed much higher than a subwoofer would be.

Not to mention that replicating the placement of the Blades woofers would be impossible due to the depth of the bookshelf itself.

To be frank, while the concept of a source point is very good in theory, I think this only holds up from the lower mids or the upper bass, below that the location of the emission points of the bass relative to the room are more important than their location relative to the emission points of the upper frequencies.

As I mentioned earlier, if you absolutely wanted very high SPL capabilities, then the Reference 1 and the S6B are both very capable of producing mid-bass at an ear-splitting level and crossing at 80 Hz is the most reasonable thing to do, especially if you plan to go the two sub route anyway. Half-assing the replication of a concept and doing it outside its optimal range of applicability isn't a terrible idea.