End-game system, overdue learnings, and still things to improve?

[kemmler3D]

If you are feeding digital into the AVR and outputting audio from the AVR, then the AVR determines the sound quality.

it's conceivable but not likely that you would hear a big quality difference between the same music (and same file) from different streaming services. It's more likely that if you're hearing big differences, they're different masters or the gain is a little different.

Every streamer outputs the same bits, even if that streamer is built into an AVR. That's just how digital works, it's almost the whole point of using a digital audio format.

All that aside congrats on getting some Salon 2s, should be awesome. With subs and ART I'd say that is certainly in contention for endgame. As @Keith_W says you really only need to think about the room now.

 

[a|F]

If you are feeding digital into the AVR and outputting audio from the AVR, then the AVR determines the sound quality.

it's conceivable but not likely that you would hear a big quality difference between the same music (and same file) from different streaming services. It's more likely that if you're hearing big differences, they're different masters or the gain is a little different.

Every streamer outputs the same bits, even if that streamer is built into an AVR. That's just how digital works, it's almost the whole point of using a digital audio format.

All that aside congrats on getting some Salon 2s, should be awesome. With subs and ART I'd say that is certainly in contention for endgame. As @Keith_W says you really only need to think about the room now.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

Implied is that running Spotify through any AVR should be equal to a dedicated streamer input to any AVR. Correct?

Those same people ignore that Spotify streams at a lesser quality than Qobuz. Correct?

The sound difference hasn't been insignificant. So to those who continue to challenge this, I'd like to know who is streaming directly through an avr, and not taking some ideological stance. I'll ship you an Eversolo to test. We can ship it around.

 

[Keith_W]

Trust but verify!

Great point about making actual measurements by @Keith_W . Should I have any concern about breaking out a UMIK that hasn't been touched in 10 years? Serious question.

Just get it out and take some measurements. If it has "gone bad" (highly unlikely unless water damaged or abused) it will announce itself pretty quickly.

 

[kemmler3D]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

Implied is that running Spotify through any AVR should be equal to a dedicated streamer input to any AVR. Correct?

Those same people ignore that Spotify streams at a lesser quality than Qobuz. Correct?

There are ways the signal can differ in the first place streaming Spotify on an AVR vs. from a dedicated streamer, maybe different quality settings etc.

And from there, it's conceivable that the internal path from the streaming module to the analog outs could be audibly different vs. one of the digital inputs on the AVR, although I wouldn't expect that.

But if we're talking about using a digital input to the AVR, vs. using the internal digital source on the AVR, and we can say for sure the digital stream is the same, any real difference in sound quality would only indicate something is wrong. Which is possible, AVRs have been shown to act funny with signal quality sometimes.

Bits are bits, whether they come from a $10K streamer or a $100 one. That's the beauty of digital, nothing can really affect the sound quality (as long as the bits remain intact) until you convert it to analog.

I probably sound like I'm being a bit ideological here, but I'm really just standing strong on the concept of digital signals. Think about it like this... rip a CD, play a CD over SPDIF, or stream the same CD on a lossless service, or download a CD-quality file of the same album. Assuming no errors in the CD playback or rip, these files will be literally identical, bit for bit. The quality of the hardware, as long as it can successfully output CD-quality audio (not a high bar) matters zero. The DAC and everything after that does matter.

But as long as it stays digital, the concept of sound quality doesn't even actually exist, we're talking about a long list of numbers here. It doesn't sound like anything and you can't affect the tonality or anything any more than you could by loading it into Excel and scrolling.

Lossy streams can definitely sound different than lossless ones, ironically this is especially true in cases of hearing loss at specific frequencies, because the masking effect stops working properly in that case. So I'm not arguing Spotify vs. Qobuz definitely sounds the same. There's also always the question of what master they're using when you compare two different streaming services, it's just hard to be sure something that ought to be identical actually is.

The sound difference hasn't been insignificant. So to those who continue to challenge this, I'd like to know who is streaming directly through an avr, and not taking some ideological stance. I'll ship you an Eversolo to test. We can ship it around.

In this case, measurements would be better than letting random forum guys listen to your gear. I think the Eversolo streamers have all been measured and shown to be pristine. So the more interesting thing would be to send your AVR to Amir and see if it's doing anything unwanted to the digital signal, anything is possible.

It sounds like you're actually using it day to day, but if you want to get to the bottom of this, that would be pretty conclusive IMO.

 

[voodooless]

Those same people ignore that Spotify streams at a lesser quality than Qobuz. Correct?

Not audibly, nor practically if you use the AVR. Spotify maxes out at 44.1 kHz, 24 bit. Qobuz can go higher in sample rate. But if you understand the sampling theorem you know that this not offer any advantage to the frequencies we can hear. And then we have the AVR, that resamples everything to 48 kHz anyway to it’s ART magic.

 

[JRR]

I find this blind faith in Dirac ART to be quite disturbing. How do you know if it's doing its job if you don't verify it?

Quite easily done by measuring the end result

 

[Satanica]

Quite easily done by measuring the end result

One could try listening with it ON/OFF too.

 

[thcdru2k]

I can listen to Spotify Lossless through a WiiM Pro Plus via Toslink directly into the miniDSP Flex HTx, through an NVIDIA Shield Pro via HDMI into the Denon X3700H and then into the Flex HTx, through Spotify Connect directly on the Denon into the Flex HTx, or through a CD transport connected to a Raspberry Pi feeding the Flex HTx over USB. All paths ultimately use the same DSP, crossover integration, delay/phase alignment, stereo-bass matrix routing, amplifiers, and speakers/subs. In my system, I do not hear a meaningful difference between these playback paths under normal listening conditions. That outcome is consistent with the idea that once digital playback chains are operating transparently, the dominant audible factors become speaker/room interaction, bass integration, and DSP implementation rather than competent modern digital transports or DAC SINAD differences.