End Game Speaker Quest - The Final Chapter

[MKR]

Got you!
What I meant is there is a hole in the market for an affordable cardioid bass module - think Genelec W371, Kii BXT etc. Something that could be easily set up with most bookshelves. Your lower bass unit looks like it would fit the bill!

Ah, I see what you mean. A very valid point. I am sure this design would absolutely work for such a scenario. The design is in fact modular. Best to reach out to Soundfield directly to discuss.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Very cool project. Can’t wait for this to progress.

 

[MKR]

In your searches, what is it that you didn't find in existing speakers that you decided to go custom? Is there a performance attribute this will better address? Or is it better value for money? Both? Something else?

Very good and very loaded questions

It is both. Not to revisit the entire journey here (please refer to the linked threads for details), but after all of the auditioning I did, I came to three conclusions … One, the design must be fully active with DSP. Second, the design must have full range cardioid (to say, down to ~40Hz). Finally, the design must have variable directivity. You have to hear full range cardioid to understand the requirement. Once you hear it, there is no turning back . And the variable directivity allows you to change the presentation based upon recording type, really it is a game changer (for me anyway). The active aspect not so difficult to find on the market of course, but full range cardioid is only done by a small list of speaker companies. I can count them on one hand. Similar comment for variable directivity. Ultimately it ended up coming down to having a fully bespoke solution tailored to my needs with all of these criteria met, and also within my budget. As far as budget, also keep in mind that as I am working directly with manufacturer, there is no retail mark-up to deal with. Such a solution would easily be 2x the price of going through retail channels, and fully out of my reach.

Hope this helps to answer your (very) good questions.

 

[MKR]

2x w371 + 2x 8351 Genelec will cost about 25k, exactly the budget. Cardiod down to 60 Hz, GLM and lots of configuration possibilities. You pay for the engineering expertise. So you pay s.o. the same money and he will make an even better DIY speaker?

Thanks for the recommend, been there, done that … I spent a lot of time with the 8361 (but not 371 to be fair) and while it was good, performance was far from the initial demo I had from Soundfield (check the threads). I also preferred other designs I heard to the Genelecs in my many auditions, including the D&D 8C. While a solid design, no question about it, you will find I am not a Genelec fanboy like many here on ASR. Different strokes for different folks.

As to engineering expertise and DIY, I can assure you Soundfield has a high level of expertise (proof is in the pudding) and these are far from “DIY”

By the way, the EG design is much more comparable to the Genelec 8381, not the 8361! How’s that for heresy on ASR? Just for you @Pearljam5000

 

[MKR]

Err....ok

Pretty sure he demoed Genelecs (8351 or 8361??) and didnt like them. Should he buy speakers he does not like lol?

A custom build with modern technology and design concepts can be fun. Different people like to spend their money in different ways.

Yup, what he said

 

[MKR]

I didn't even know such customisation services existed - awesome!

Can you talk us through the process of defining the new speaker - how did you translate your listening experience with other brands and your preferences into a specification to be built?

Will you be sending it to Amir for a spin

Great question. See my post above on criteria, that should at least partly address your question. The other aspect is my room and what type of design would work best in this case. The room is on the smaller side and a bit goofy as to dimensions, so the design had to be as independent of room as possible. Again my criteria mentioned in prior post also make this possible.

As to sending to Amir, that would be great, but these bad boys won’t be pried from my cold dead hands after they are in my possession LOL … not to mention they are very big and heavy, which makes such an endeavor very difficult. If Amir won’t even get his Salon 2 on the Klippel, certainly won’t happen with the EGs

 

[Rick Sykora]

How much are these going to cost?

 

[MKR]

How much are these going to cost?

Hey Rick … not 100% decided yet as design not finalized, but mid to low 20s (k)

 

[Pearljam5000]

Thanks for the recommend, been there, done that … I spent a lot of time with the 8361 (but not 371 to be fair) and while it was good, performance was far from the initial demo I had from Soundfield (check the threads). I also preferred other designs I heard to the Genelecs in my many auditions, including the D&D 8C. While a solid design, no question about it, you will find I am not a Genelec fanboy like many here on ASR. Different strokes for different folks.

As to engineering expertise and DIY, I can assure you Soundfield has a high level of expertise (proof is in the pudding) and these are far from “DIY”

By the way, the EG design is much more comparable to the Genelec 8381, not the 8361! How’s that for heresy on ASR? Just for you @Pearljam5000

Amazing
congratulations on the decision
I'm sure you'll enjoy them for many years even though they're not Genelecs

 

[MKR]

Amazing
congratulations on the decision
I'm sure you'll enjoy them for many years even though they're not Genelecs

Well played sir, well played

 

[mglobe]

The chance to have a bespoke solution with these characteristics (active, full cardiod, adjustable directivity) is fantastic. Can't wait to hear how it turns out.

 

[dshreter]

Very good and very loaded questions

It is both. Not to revisit the entire journey here (please refer to the linked threads for details), but after all of the auditioning I did, I came to three conclusions … One, the design must be fully active with DSP. Second, the design must have full range cardioid (to say, down to ~40Hz). Finally, the design must have variable directivity. You have to hear full range cardioid to understand the requirement. Once you hear it, there is no turning back . And the variable directivity allows you to change the presentation based upon recording type, really it is a game changer (for me anyway). The active aspect not so difficult to find on the market of course, but full range cardioid is only done by a small list of speaker companies. I can count them on one hand. Similar comment for variable directivity. Ultimately it ended up coming down to having a fully bespoke solution tailored to my needs with all of these criteria met, and also within my budget. As far as budget, also keep in mind that as I am working directly with manufacturer, there is no retail mark-up to deal with. Such a solution would easily be 2x the price of going through retail channels, and fully out of my reach.

Hope this helps to answer your (very) good questions.

This sounds epic, and also interesting id believe you wouldn’t have come to these conclusions on cardioid and variable directivity without an extensive search.

I’m looking forward to the endgame room treatment thread as well please and thank you

 

[MKR]

This sounds epic, and also interesting id believe you wouldn’t have come to these conclusions on cardioid and variable directivity without an extensive search.

I’m looking forward to the endgame room treatment thread as well please and thank you

Correct, a very extensive search, going just over 2 years now!

As to room treatment, you may be disappointed. Any treatment I have will be simple and straightforward. One of the main benefits of a design like the EGs is to minimize room interaction and hence treatment. Of course you can never fully eliminate room interaction (physics is physics), especially in the somewhat odd room that I have, so will be some small amount.

 

[amper42]

Hello All,

I decided it may be best to start a new thread to make the update not so buried in my other very long threads. For those new to the party and would like some (long) history, Part 1 and 2 threads can be viewed below ...

Pt 1 - https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...t-on-the-quest-for-my-end-game-speaker.38378/
Pt 2 - https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/end-game-speakers-the-quest-continues.52219/

Crazy to think that this journey started over 2 years ago, the time has flown by. Of course time flies when you are having fun, and well, it has been a blast. I have attended multiple shows and visited multiple dealers, most of the time I have had one or more of my sons with me. Has truly been a joy to share this hobby and those experiences with my boys. They also have the "bug" and already one of them purchased a pair of Revel F35s per my recommendation (great bang for the buck, solid design) and they sound superb, he is happy as a clam.

I have heard so many different speakers I have lost count, all different types of designs, with prices ranging in the hundreds to hundreds of thousands. In the end the decision is a custom system from Soundfield Audio. I should also note that my listening space ultimately is smaller than initially planned, as such I do not need same SPL level and so could drop my budget a bit (all good, money left over for new TV and pre/pro for the theater!).

The design of the EGs (aka end-game, the official name by Soundfield for the design ) has begun and is mostly finalized, but the midrange/tweet design is still open, coaxial vs planar. To help me decide, Soundfield will be sending me some demo speakers to try out in my new listening space. Will be a basic bass cab (cardioid of course) with interchangeable mid/tweet "heads". Demos are expected to arrive next 2-3 weeks, will keep everyone posted in the thread on my thoughts/experiences with the different designs. Very curious as to the differences I will hear. I also plan to perform some measurements with REW to better compare and balance what I am hearing vs real data, try to make it objective decision as well as subjective.

Below are the basic EG specs (per speaker) and some initial renderings of the design (render is only with the planar config of course). More to come! ...

Front woofers: 4x10" (passive cardioid, 40-300hz)
Side woofers: 4x12" (sealed, opposed force cancelling, 20-40hz ... similar to the Titan line array design for those familiar)
Mid/tweet: Above 300Hz ... 3" planar tweet + 10" planar mid OR 12" Coax w/BMS compression mid + 3" planar tweet
Rear: 8" planar with internal diffusion
Fully active via Hypex Fusion amplification/DSP (1100W)
EDIT: Front/rear variable directivity (user selectable via Hypex remote)


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These remind me of the 1998 VMPS SuperTower III.

Or the Legacy Valor.

They're the kind of speakers you don't move often and weigh a ton. Modular pieces will help but each piece still weighs quite a bit and you have to lift that top part onto the base and screw it in place. This is where your sons come in.

These types of speakers usually don't sound that great at background music sound levels but they become super dynamic when played loud. You may want to consider using the "Loudness" control with an RME ADI-2 DAC FS. It will help make low volume playback more dynamic. You can't play at 90dB+ all day and keep your hearing in good order so it's nice to have an option for optimizing lower volume playback. Have fun!

 

[MKR]

These remind me of the 1998 VMPS SuperTower III.

View attachment 403695

Or the Legacy Valor.

View attachment 403696

They're the kind of speakers you don't move often and weigh a ton. Modular pieces will help but each piece still weighs quite a bit and you have to lift that top part onto the base and screw it in place. This is where your sons come in.

These types of speakers usually don't sound that great at background music sound levels but they become super dynamic when played loud. You may want to consider using the "Loudness" control with an RME ADI-2 DAC FS. It will help make low volume playback more dynamic. You can't play at 90dB+ all day and keep your hearing in good order so it's nice to have an option for optimizing lower volume playback. Have fun!

Thanks for your comments. Yup, they will be heavy, and yup, will have some assistance… not a 1 person move/assembly process to be sure.

As to similarities to the speakers you mentioned, yeah, sort of I suppose. But similarities end at driver topology. The EGs are a fully different animal. And I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that the EGs will not sound good at low volumes just by looking at a render? Can you please provide a more detailed explanation for your conclusion?

 

[prestigetone]

How are the demos different than the final product? Please measure them!

 

[mglobe]

What’s behind the selection of small planers for the mid and treble? Are you trying to capture some of the soundstage characteristics of planers while avoiding the small sweet spot they typically have? Or something else? I’m really curious.

 

[MKR]

How are the demos different than the final product? Please measure them!

Good question! The demos are of course only to make decision planar vs coax, so those will be very similar to final design. However, will only be lower bass bin and that bin will be a more minimal design, not same as final, they are only a means to an end.

Yup, as I stated in original post will be doing some measurements to compare to my subjective impressions.

 

[prestigetone]

Good question! The demos are of course only to make decision planar vs coax, so those will be very similar to final design. However, will only be lower bass bin and that bin will be a more minimal design, not same as final, they are only a means to an end.

Yup, as I stated in original post will be doing some measurements to compare to my subjective impressions.

How is the shipping handled? I can only imagine that the cost to ship these there and back in addition to the final pair will be in the thousands.

 

[MKR]

How is the shipping handled? I can only imagine that the cost to ship these there and back in addition to the final pair will be in the thousands.

Sorry, not sure what you mean by “handled”? I assume you mean who is responsible for cost?