End Game DIY Loudspeakers

[TonyJZX]

people are splitting hairs

does anyone make their own drivers? spin their own cable?

I am reminded of 'project cars' where really you just engage an engine builder, a panel guy, a paint guy....

if people are doing components to your spec then i feel that is fair enough... but again the end results matter

this also comes down to what people expect to acheive? I mean we can all rattle off the stuff we want... 20-20 flat a ruler, close to 90dB sensitivity... triple driver, triple taps...

 

[kemmler3D]

And if you’re hiring someone who is an experienced loudspeaker builder, that’s a bespoke speaker not DIY.

Yes, that is exactly my point. With a $30K budget, hire someone to do custom / bespoke, forget trial and error, especially if you have not done it before.

As others have said, unless you truly have the DIY bug, DIY has a relatively specific band of budgets where it makes sense as a value proposition. I would argue $30K or even $20K is hard to spend effectively building your own speakers.

It's hard to spend $20K+ on drivers, wood, and crossovers or DSP, for 2-channel, even if you want to. At that point you are faced with taking engineering courses on CFD and FEA to make real improvements... better to call in the experts at that point.

Take the time you would have spent on building (and rebuilding) the endgame speaker, and just travel around demoing as many great speakers as you can. Take notes, etc. Figure out EXACTLY what you want. Then take that information to someone who is ready to start building the endgame speaker today, not in 3 years after they've filled their garage with sawdust and spare crossover components that weren't quite right.

 

[kemmler3D]

All that said, I am surprised nobody has brought up the Purifi or Bliesma drivers as a path to SOTA DIY. On paper they have the linearity and distortion numbers to compete credibly with Genelec and KEF stuff. However, my understanding is you need to be pretty savvy to get the best out of them. Yes, they are very expensive, but at a $30K budget, they aren't.

 

[dshreter]

Yes, that is exactly my point. With a $30K budget, hire someone to do custom / bespoke, forget trial and error, especially if you have not done it before.

As others have said, unless you truly have the DIY bug, DIY has a relatively specific band of budgets where it makes sense as a value proposition. I would argue $30K or even $20K is hard to spend effectively building your own speakers.

It's hard to spend $20K+ on drivers, wood, and crossovers or DSP, for 2-channel, even if you want to. At that point you are faced with taking engineering courses on CFD and FEA to make real improvements... better to call in the experts at that point.

Take the time you would have spent on building (and rebuilding) the endgame speaker, and just travel around demoing as many great speakers as you can. Take notes, etc. Figure out EXACTLY what you want. Then take that information to someone who is ready to start building the endgame speaker today, not in 3 years after they've filled their garage with sawdust and spare crossover components that weren't quite right.

To me it is ethically dubious to travel all around demoing speakers, taking up various dealers’ time in what they think is good faith exchange, for the purpose of duplicating a design to save money.

It might yield a speaker that looks and sounds good at a better price than MSRP of what you liked, but that’s definitely not the end game I would want staring back at me in my living room for 20 years.

 

[Wolf]

Do you have a link to these reviews?

Unfortunately these were all by text or word of mouth.

 

[kemmler3D]

To me it is ethically dubious to travel all around demoing speakers, taking up various dealers’ time in what they think is good faith exchange, for the purpose of duplicating a design to save money.

It might yield a speaker that looks and sounds good at a better price than MSRP of what you liked, but that’s definitely not the end game I would want staring back at me in my living room for 20 years.

A very fair point, but you can attend audio shows, meetups, and so on for 'ethical' demos with no intent to buy.

Also, to answer OP's actual question, I have been reading the DIYAudio forums for over a year now (gathering knowledge in anticipation of the day that I have time to attempt my own endgame-ish DIY job*) and I am not aware of any open-source projects that are generally considered superior to e.g. KEF Blade or Revel Salon or anything on that tier or above.

I'm not saying they don't exist, but I haven't seen measurements that would beat those from an open design, which is not to say they don't exist, just am not aware of any.

*I have years of experience with 3D printing, DSP, and even some actual speaker design from my previous job so I feel equipped. If I was starting from zero I'd agree it would be a foolish idea.

 

[Another Bob]

As has already been mentioned, unless you're already a highly experienced speaker designer and proficient with advanced modeling tools, you should stick to copying an existing design. (That assumes, as stated, that the goal is an "end game" speaker.) And if you're not pretty decent woodworker or don't have access to good tools, you'll want to hire someone, even if you don't care about Revel-level finishes.

I built myself a pair of M2 clones for a little over $4K, not including my membership fees to a local "maker space" that gave me access to high-end woodworking tools, physical space for the construction process, and 3D printers for the ports. I'm thrilled with the results sonically, and satisfied with the results aesthetically, although they are far short of any commercial product in that regard. Availability of the drivers was a little touch-and-go during the pandemic, but they appear to be in stock currently. I'm using AudioLense for the crossover and equalization (also not included in the $4K price).

 

[TonyJZX]

i think if you have $30k to spend on nonsense then you're better off spending $10k on nonsense and pocketing the rest... for other kinds of nonsense

unless you truly enjoy all the various aspects then your time is better spend doing something else

i can fully understand someone who has all the tools loving doing the woodwork... it in itself is kind of fun

 

[Sashoir]

I know precisely zero about DIY speakers. I do know a little about making something myself instead of buying an off-the-shelf solution.

It *can* work if the following hold:
* you are stubborn to the point of a character flaw
* you are very patient and willing to play a long game
* you enjoy learning
* you've a very clear idea of what you want
* what you want is sufficiently different from what commercial offerings provide
* you prefer your own errors to a manufacturer's compromises
* you have some background and or aptitude in related area(s).

It's certainly the case that you'll never match a manufacturer's design/R&D budget. But manufacturers generally don't conduct R&D by giving designers and engineers a huge wad of cash and years of time saying "go for it, lads". Also, their design goals are pitched at either the median or the marginal customer's wants (or perceived wants, or induced wants), and limited by their dislikes. So *if* your wants are idiosyncratic (and achievable), then you *can* have an advantage vs. a commercial producer.

The disadvantage, in my experience, is not in the painstaking acquisition of the technical knowledge as you might first think of it (finite element analysis or what have you): that sort of thing is generally interesting enough to be a pleasure to learn (if you've a little related field background or aptitude). It's the less glamorous know-how. Processes, procedures, rules of thumb, and colleagues who are able to hear your bright idea and say "we tried that a few years ago and it doesn't work because of x, y, and z". That's not something you can pick up in a couple of years (unlike a doctorate in fluid mechanics or whatever). And it's time-consuming and expensive. And honestly not that much fun.

As I said, no speaker-building experience, but that's what I've found in other areas. As trumpet don says, your mileage may vary.

 

[Wolf]

What I would call Flagships of the DIY community, that are still available....

Diyaudio:
Open Source Monkey Coffin, lots of information.
Joe Rasmussen's "Elsinore"
Projects by Goran, Pida

Htguide:
Ardent Wavecor or any other variant by JonMarsh/EvilTwin

Loudspeaker Project Pad:
Victors, by isaeagle1031
Enthraals, by Javad Shadzi, honestly didn't like them myself.

Web forum hosted:
Statements 1 or 2, Curt's website hosts the data. Don't know if mids are gone yet.
Cantilenas, a PaulK/Rick Craig hybrid, likely on PETT.

There are many more over the years that have impressed me, but these are the big ones that as far as I know are still attainable.

The only larger build of mine that would fall into place well in this list, would be my Nephila project. It uses a modified knock down tower cabinet from PE/Denovo, and the kit is available from Meniscus. Jeff B himself said in a review post after hearing them, that he felt you could not do much better without spending a lot more money.
In a listening competition in Ohio, the crowd and 3 judges gave them the top spot, scoring the highest over all 4 categories. It's likely not seen as an endgame design by some people, but for the format it is, and how it fared, I feel it should be included.

 

[Wolf]

The Bordeaux is another one I should have added. Jim/Curt collaberation.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I think the M2 clone is worth looking into if you like the M2.

The M2 is easily cloned. Currently the drivers and the horn are available from JBL parts. The factory cabinets are simple enough to copy and very utilitarian so making custom versions that better suit your aesthetic makes sense. If you are doing it to save money, that makes less sense since the finished speakers are not that costly. For anyone interested there are a number of well documented cloning projects on the Lansing Heritage site.

My advice would be to demo everything you can.

+1
However this is even more difficult in DIY. I always build test box mules in prototyping new designs... these tend to get hacked up as the design evolves.

But I also think DIY with a $30K budget is silly unless you already have pro-level skills in (at least) driver selection, DSP, and woodworking or other means of construction.

+1
For years I had my own professional prototyping business. Even with this advantage, DIY can be a challenge if your goal is to have results at the highest level.

Cloning a passive design into an active one of the same physical layout though is much easier, because you don't need the exact same drive units, internal dimensions and so on! The F328be would be cheaper and higher performing if it was active and used DSP, but that's not what the domestic speaker market wants. That's the real appeal of DIY I think, to create things that are strictly better but which the commercial market serves poorly.

Now that is a very interesting idea. You could begin by measuring the voltage drives of the passive network and them recreating them in a fully active version. You will likely find that you still have a fair amount of work dialing in the new curves as the simple act of removing the driver loading from the passive components will alter the performance as will time alignment. But a truly spectacular result could be achieved and quite possibly be superior to the Salons.

 

[Another Bob]

You could begin by measuring the voltage drives of the passive network and them recreating them in a fully active version. You will likely find that you still have a fair amount of work dialing in the new curves as the simple act of removing the driver loading from the passive components will alter the performance as will time alignment.

But all that is really unnecessary. If you use something like Audiolense or Acourate, all you have to do is measure the acoustic output of the drivers and the software takes care of the rest.

 

[KellenVancouver]

I did my own a couple years ago, a pair of Selah which are no longer available (owner has since died). Cost was more of a secondary consideration. Mostly I just wanted to challenge myself, as well as combine high-quality components from an expert designer with high-end cabinetry. The cabinet making part wasn't a big deal because I have quality woodworking equipment, but the biggest challenge in that project, for me at least, was painting. To eventually get the look I wanted, I ended up using some specialty paint designed for automobiles with several top coats. I'm very pleased with the final product and love the sound (probably too much speaker for my space, but oh well), and that appreciation seems to be amplified (yeah, shameless pun) because of all the personal work I put into it. But that painting part, that was the big learning curve/challenge for me. Would I do it again? Certainly I'd want the same quality of final product, but not sure I'd want to do all that work a second time; once was enough.

 

[Mr. Widget]

But all that is really unnecessary. If you use something like Audiolense or Acourate, all you have to do is measure the acoustic output of the drivers and the software takes care of the rest.

You certainly can try this automated approach, but I believe that even at Harman, there is art as well as science in their speaker design. Kevin Voecks and his team certainly made decisions based on their own listening tests and these probably will differ from the automated cookbook method of loudspeaker design.

 

[Jukka]

Well, 3 pieces of better-than-salon-SOTA drivers from reputable brand (excluding diamond drivers) cost maybe 1-2k per speaker. Add a best-in-class dsp-plate-amp (800) which is overkill, but to cost no object. Stuffing into a cab is less than 150-200 each. I've CADded my own cabinets and spent about total of 1500 to a pro carpenter shop for ready made and painted cabs each. I've personally used 200-350 for each driver in a 3-way and this is already end-game material, but for a completely different style of speaker than, say, Revel Salon. It's a completely different collection of compromises, that fits my goal better. The design and implementation is more than drivers alone.

People are just blinded by the huge cost of "high end" speakers from companies that need to make profit after the paying bills.

 

[FrantzM]

But all that is really unnecessary. If you use something like Audiolense or Acourate, all you have to do is measure the acoustic output of the drivers and the software takes care of the rest.

We can all dream


Happy holidays!
Peace.

 

[bothu]

My DIY speakers for about 2000 $.

 

[Another Bob]

You certainly can try this automated approach,

To be clear, this is not just something I've read about. I've done it. On two different speakers. The results, both subjectively and measured with REW, speak for themselves.

 

[Doodski]

My DIY speakers for about 2000 $.

Those look very good. I like the big woofer and mid bass. So many speakers are bookshelf speakers on stands now and it's annoying the market has come to this.