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Emotiva XMC-2 Review (AV Processor)

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amirm

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Over in the Emotiva Lounge thread Lonnie speculated in a post that the device may indeed be broken. If the owner were to send the device to Emotiva for evaluation and possible repair, we might just find out whether this is the device's true performance or it really was broken and it should be given another chance at passing @amirm's rigorous course of testing.
I don't know what there is to test. Their own measurement shows a SINAD of 85 dB which is terrible for an AVR let alone a high-end AV Processor. Whether it has the low frequency noise or phase problem is on top of this.

There has to be a measurable improvement in a processor vs AVR. Otherwise you are paying $3K to have a set of XLR connectors!

The unit is back at the owner btw.
 

Sal1950

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Putting aside the two specialized devices up top, the best we have seen is 103 dB.
Thanks for the hard work and the willingness to take the heat from a very negative review, I know that's no fun at all.
I've really wanted to get a good review for a Emotiva HT product. I've always found their products to have some of the best cosmetic designs in the industry, very handsome. (IMO). Unfortunately it always seems the same ole - same ole, questionable measured performance and buggy UI. :(
I haven't read this thread in it's entirety nor the ones at the Emo Lounge but I've done enough purchasing homework over the years to support my above comments. I have no idea what the problems are over there but it just seems as if AV pre/pros are beyond their design teams ability to create a stable product that performs correctly.
I currently run a Marantz AV7703 and although it measured far from stellar, I does do exactly what it's supposed to do when I turn on or off a feature and always has. I can't think of a single operational bug in it's UI. Before that I owned a 7701 for about 3-4 years and it performed in the same manner. AFAIK it is still in use by Blumlein 88 and he's never complained about it's function in any way and he posted a set of measurements on it here some years back. I'd replace mine in an New York minute if one came along, priced in my ballpark, that did offer stellar numbers and a UI of D-M quality.
On Emo's pro side I've owned a DC-1 DAC for around 5 years, measured here by Amir, that has always performed exactly as it should so IMHO something seems amiss in the AV product group.
It is entirely possible that the unit Amir received is defective in some way. Now if I was a Chief at Emo the very first thing I would have done is to pull another unit off the line, measure it for proper function, and overnight shipped it to Amir. I wouldn't want my name sullied by a defective unit.
What would you do?
 

sam_adams

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I don't know what there is to test. Their own measurement shows a SINAD of 85 dB which is terrible for an AVR let alone a high-end AV Processor. Whether it has the low frequency noise or phase problem is on top of this.

There has to be a measurable improvement in a processor vs AVR. Otherwise you are paying $3K to have a set of XLR connectors!

The unit is back at the owner btw.

Remember, we did see an improvement with the RMC-1 with a firmware update. What if this is simply a matter of poor coding? Perhaps a missing semicolon somewhere. I know I've made mistakes like this before in even the simplest of coding tasks. It's almost a certainty that Emotiva doesn't have in-house coders for this—which makes software QC an even harder task for them.

What if the owner sends it to them and it is found out to be a true hardware issue? Wouldn't it be in the interest of fairness to give them a shot at a retest? Think of the good will that would generate.

I really don't want to put the onus on you to do a retest considering how much you do for all of us. But, I'm sure that you, like the rest of us, have a question in the back of your mind as to why this device is exhibiting such poor performance. We all want to know what's happening with this and that's why we're here, to know.
 

Alice of Old Vincennes

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Remember, we did see an improvement with the RMC-1 with a firmware update. What if this is simply a matter of poor coding? Perhaps a missing semicolon somewhere. I know I've made mistakes like this before in even the simplest of coding tasks. It's almost a certainty that Emotiva doesn't have in-house coders for this—which makes software QC an even harder task for them.

What if the owner sends it to them and it is found out to be a true hardware issue? Wouldn't it be in the interest of fairness to give them a shot at a retest? Think of the good will that would generate.

I really don't want to put the onus on you to do a retest considering how much you do for all of us. But, I'm sure that you, like the rest of us, have a question in the back of your mind as to why this device is exhibiting such poor performance. We all want to know what's happening with this and that's why we're here, to know.
Oh come on. Emotiva needs to reach out instead of freezing threads. Deep water without swimming lessons or a life jacket.
 
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amirm

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But, I'm sure that you, like the rest of us, have a question in the back of your mind as to why this device is exhibiting such poor performance.
I don't have a question. As I mentioned, their own SINAD measurement matches mine. That would be enough to get the headless panther.
 

GXAlan

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I don't know what there is to test. Their own measurement shows a SINAD of 85 dB which is terrible for an AVR let alone a high-end AV Processor.

There has to be a measurable improvement in a processor vs AVR. Otherwise you are paying $3K to have a set of XLR connectors!

I agree. The data is pretty clear. The Denon X8500H is a really good processor even though the amps aren’t quite as good as other receivers if you’re in the lower range of 5W. It has good HDMI CEC support and if you are skilled enough to use Dirac, you are skilled enough to use Ratbuddysey to fine tune XT32. It’s not cheap but you certainly are getting measured performance for the premium price. The AVR-A110 is potentially an even better option for those with deeper pockets and desire to have the very best.

I think the problem is that we “expect” the more boutique brands to do better than the mainstream brands or even that balanced XLR outs are better. It’s also fun to root for the underdog or root for the esoteric choice rather than the conglomerate that is available at BestBuy.

I think the problem is that it’s like wanting to avoid Costco so that you can support your local mom and pop, but fundamentally not being able overcome the fact that Costco ships in such volume that they can get better deals on components and $100 in D&M factories goes further than $100 with a boutique manufacturer.

The real question is if anyone has a McIntosh MX123 to send to Amir? D&M for the HDMI and electronics but McIntosh for the rest of the audio…
 

TimoJ

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Remember, we did see an improvement with the RMC-1 with a firmware update. What if this is simply a matter of poor coding? Perhaps a missing semicolon somewhere. I know I've made mistakes like this before in even the simplest of coding tasks. It's almost a certainty that Emotiva doesn't have in-house coders for this—which makes software QC an even harder task for them.
Since these processors share the same firmware (or parts of it), I wonder if also RMC-1 and RMC-1L are this bad with 2.3 firmware...?
 

ousi

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I actually had the XMC-2 for 2 days and had to incur the shipping cost and shipped it back - that's when they have first released it.
I had the XMC-1 before and it was quite okay albeit with some UI bugs... The XMC-2 was a downgrade in my setup at my old home - no dynamics, very harsh treble, bass was funky (luckily it didn't blew my sub driver). At the same time I had the AV8805 (the original) which sounds significantly more normal. I guess the measurement explained what's going on.

Really want Emotiva to turn out a great HT products with good sonics. I was very disappointed...
 

peng

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Oh come on. Emotiva needs to reach out instead of freezing threads. Deep water without swimming lessons or a life jacket.

Freezing threads could be a good thing if there is a good reason. A good reason, for example, would be if Emotiva is investigating the cause of the poor performance relative to that of the XMC-1.
 

poopy

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This. So this. Which is why this result was so disappointing.

Don't be disappointed, you should be happy :) If you don't own a XMC-2 and want to buy an AVP, then it won't be on your list anymore. If you own one, sell it asap (before the second-hand market becomes saturated with XMC-2) and buy another AVP. Won't be difficult to buy something performing better....
 

RichB

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Oh come on. Emotiva needs to reach out instead of freezing threads. Deep water without swimming lessons or a life jacket.

Freezing threads could be a good thing if there is a good reason. A good reason, for example, would be if Emotiva is investigating the cause of the poor performance relative to that of the XMC-1.

The Emotiva thread is not closed. Measurements from Lonnie posted there have been posted here, so that should be evident.

It is fair to comment/criticize product performance, lack of specifications, and such, but unfair to continue to post that the thread is closed and pile on from there.

- Rich
 

poopy

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The Emotiva thread is not closed. Measurements from Lonnie posted there have been posted here, so that should be evident.

It is fair to comment/criticize product performance, lack of specifications, and such, but unfair to continue to post that the thread is closed and pile on from there.

- Rich

Totally get your point. However, Lonnie is not saying that the measurements he posted look abnormal/surprising/alarming. His measurements confirm Amir' measurements, and his lack of reaction regarding these mediocre results looks like he knew about that.
 

RichB

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Don't be disappointed, you should be happy :) If you don't own a XMC-2 and want to buy an AVP, then it won't be on your list anymore. If you own one, sell it asap (before the second-hand market becomes saturated with XMC-2) and buy another AVP. Won't be difficult to buy something performing better....

I am with the RMC-1. I like many features including analog Pure Direct mode, DAC input option, integration with REW (filter import), on-the-fly temporary adjustment for the center channel (and others) for specific titles. The Dolby upmixer is excellent with 2.0 sources, virtually indistiquishable from multi-channel sources. I absolutely love it. Perhaps, this is also true of other processors but this is not the site to evaluate these features.

HDMI switching in about 6 seconds a bit longer than the Denon 3700 that is also not instantaneous. I can't directly compare the 3700 to the RMC-1 (that are not collocated) so I don't know if the RMC-1 up-mixing/center channel implementation is superior but can say it is excellent. I do look for consistent architecture on all channels as an indication of the uniform performance on all channels but would like the see that measured.
I selected the 3700 for reliability, simplicity, and wireless features so I am also happy with its functionality.

I use PEQ but not Dirac, but monitoring threads, it is clear that there have been many Dirac releases with fixes and it may be that Emotiva has unit specific issues. Emotiva is still tackling bass management issues some specific to Dirac some not.

Much of the work of AVR/AVPs is DSP processing and clearly there are different architectures so the reasonable assumption is different performance. Dirac and other REQ are black-boxes in that the actual filters applied are not known. Some processors support more and possibly different filters, so Dirac/REQ may produce different and more effective results that are system dependent. This is an assumption on my part, of course.

ASR is providing a wonderful service by giving us a baseline performance metrics. Thank you!

Fortunately, the RMC-1 measured very well on ASR so I am spared from the angst facing XMC2 owners.

- Rich
 

Derwin

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Totally get your point. However, Lonnie is not saying that the measurements he posted look abnormal/surprising/alarming. His measurements confirm Amir' measurements, and his lack of reaction regarding these mediocre results looks like he knew about that.

What bugs me is Lonnie and Keith are also on there saying that they’ve both confirmed the RMC and XMC are the same (100 SINAD vs 85?), and also that SINAD doesn’t even matter and it is just an old radio term…

Maybe I’m being cynical and I do hope I am wrong here. But I agree with you - it sure sounds like they do know they are different and are trying to obscure the fact.
 

RichB

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Totally get your point. However, Lonnie is not saying that the measurements he posted look abnormal/surprising/alarming. His measurements confirm Amir' measurements, and his lack of reaction regarding these mediocre results looks like he knew about that.

Perhaps, I'd like to see the measurement methodologies fully aligned. There was some discussion about input level adjustment that versus output and that possibly differing in the RMC-1 measurements, that I did not follow but does not seem right.

I don't use the dial on the RMC-1 and the Emotiva menus are not speedy but using the remote, they are functional. I'd prefer a web based UI option but since this is setup, it is of low priority to me.

I continue to fervently hope for direct communication and would like to see Emotiva ship a unit to Amir for testing, Perhaps the SINAD will not improve but at least the channel timing and low frequency noise will be gone.

- Rich
 

GXAlan

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The Emotiva thread is not closed. Measurements from Lonnie posted there have been posted here, so that should be evident.

It is fair to comment/criticize product performance, lack of specifications, and such, but unfair to continue to post that the thread is closed and pile on from there.

- Rich

Google search for XMC-2 EmotivaLounge shows that second link.
1631197498282.png


which has been deleted as opposed to locked
https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/59159/xmc-2-poor-measured-performance

This thread is still good though which was temporarily locked while Emotiva ran their own tests
https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/59158/asr-xmc-2-review
 

Derwin

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Google search for XMC-2 EmotivaLounge shows that second link.
View attachment 152327

which has been deleted as opposed to locked
https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/59159/xmc-2-poor-measured-performance

This thread is still good though which was temporarily locked while Emotiva ran their own tests
https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/59158/asr-xmc-2-review

In their defense, I think they consolidated as opposed to deleting. The one that remains is in an obscure corner of the boards as opposed to the main section where the now-gone one was, but they did say they were consolidating.
 

GXAlan

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In their defense, I think they consolidated as opposed to deleting. The one that remains is in an obscure corner of the boards as opposed to the main section where the now-gone one was, but they did say they were consolidating.

Yeah, just weird they didn't lock the deleted thread instead, just for the transparency of it.

Emotiva has great customer support, but I think people are just surprised that it's not the same as the more expensive one which was supposed to have identical sound quality, just different upgradability.

The bigger problem is that it's priced like a premium product but performs closer to a mass market product. Everyone hates the mass market product but it is hard to fight economies of scale. In some cases like the McIntosh MC462 you pay a premium but actually do get good performance. When someone is paying premium pricing for a tube-based component, they are also paying for the tube colorations/mechanical-watch-craftsmanship/pride.

Here, the owners paid for a premium product and the probably would have been better off with a AVR-X8500h. There is a assembled-in-USA benefit to the Emotiva, for sure. I am curious to see where the McIntosh MX123 measures if anyone has one and is willing to send it in...
 

RichB

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In their defense, I think they consolidated as opposed to deleting. The one that remains is in an obscure corner of the boards as opposed to the main section where the now-gone one was, but they did say they were consolidating.

The Emotiva thread is in the first position after the pinned section. So it is not something out of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy :)

1631200826812.png


- Rich
 
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