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Emotiva RMC-1+ AV Processor Review

Rate this AV Processor:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 191 88.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 20 9.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 4 1.9%

  • Total voters
    216
That's why I said it wasn't important, being polite and make allowance for exceptions obviously. :) I know quite a few non degreed individuals who have excellent knowledge in EE principles/concepts and also enough, unfortunately degreed individuals who somehow even managed to graduate with 1st class honors, but not really have good enough understanding of some important concepts/EE principles, especially in the field of power systems, control systems, and communications (telecommunication that is). So again, I thought it would be fair to make allowance for exceptional cases, but in general I do agree with you.
My boss and mentor designed CPUs and boards, with no college degree. He was also an excellent writer.
It's best to discuss the merits of product performance, because there are many credentialed midwits.

- Rich
 
Let me help restoring the truth.

As the whole audio industry has been doing since THD+N was introduced to characterize the quality of most audio device. SINAD is only the reciprocal of THD+N expressed in dB.

They don’t, they use THD+N, which is the same.

It is one of many ways to rate a device and is as valid as THD+N since it is the same. Few ancient devices would look bad measured this way, such as a tape deck.

Problem is they don’t ignore but comment wrongly/badly.


Agreed on all points.

What I was referring to was Amir's methodology. Emotiva uses 48khz A weighted for their tests, while Amir used 44.1khz unweighted. I'd like to see Emotiva's test results using the same criteria as Amir. I'm no expert in this respect, but it seems that Amir might be using a more critical methodology.

If anyone can explain this better, please do.
 
A-weighted is obsolete but provides a better dynamic range number than unweighted, and unweighted provides a better dynamic range number that CCIR-2k weighting curve, which is the one recommended to be used by the AES, and the one that Amir uses.
 
Agreed on all points.

What I was referring to was Amir's methodology. Emotiva uses 48khz A weighted for their tests, while Amir used 44.1khz unweighted. I'd like to see Emotiva's test results using the same criteria as Amir. I'm no expert in this respect, but it seems that Amir might be using a more critical methodology.

If anyone can explain this better, please do.

The 41.1kHz unweighted is included in this post; https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...av-processor-review.66077/page-8#post-2407722.

1758833137146.png


- Rich
 
I think all manufacturers should be post THD+N or SINAD for their processors costing thousands of dollars.

They should also give some specs on DSP implementation. It seems clear the DIRAC processing could be affected by the DSP implementation.
Performance with DSP engaged should be posted.

I expect that processors will have reduced SINAD with DSP engaged.
Some will have nasty digital clipping when they do not have sufficient headroom.

ASR measurements are good, but they are not dispositive and the best that can be said is that ASR measurements *may* be an indication of design hygiene.
There is no telling what else could be going wrong.

- Rich
 
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The FLEX HT would be an option if there was a reliable HDMI solution.

I am afraid the HDFury VRROOM does not qualify, it does not properly support QMS-VRR, has bugs not present in the Vertex 2 and has not provided a software update (or fix) since 2023.

AVPs keep getting more expensive where to get balanced outs you have to pay for very large channel counts.
Receivers seem to be the best bang for the buck, but you have to go up-scale to get unbalanced outs for all channels.

- Rich
Yea but “upscale” is usually $799 or so (DRX 3.4), which is peanuts for a reliable AVP with SINAD similar to or better than competitors costing 3x or more just to be in the conversation. The whole “they don’t come with balanced outputs” argument falls flat for me these days when you can easily and cheaply do that with another device (BobWire) or just use Benchmark RCA —> XLR cables, which is what I use between my x3700h and Apollon Hypex amps.
 
There is a little bit of cult vibe in their forum, sometime verging on the irrational and aggressive.

Lol! Earlier in the thread I was going to say in response to the "rebuttal" by Emotiva on their forum: "Being defensive is how you build a cult." I thought that might be a little too much, but if the shoe fits....

I've bought 2 amps and a DAC from them over the years. I don't have any complaints.

Maybe we should be thinking of this update as a "repair" to the existing models? They did keep the same product number, after all. I bet they would tell us that they have never had a product returned for high THD+N, but they have had a large number of returns and complaints for the slow video switching, device crashing, slow interface, etc. From comments here they have ACTUALLY fixed those problems! That doesn't show up in the SINAD, but it is a big deal for them.

If the original plan for the "plus" versions was to fix the UI and video switching issues, then it is clear that the project escalated into a complete re-design...without actually changing the design.

I'm not 100% ruling out the XMC-2+...it is the same performance, but $1,500 less. It is still a lot of money, and I'm a little concerned about that high frequency noise combined with my compression drivers.
 
All true. But can't say that Marantz AVPs don't run cool which brings me a peace of mind. I am picky and ready to pay for it, but the heat out of my 6700H in pre-amp mode is just freaking me out. I can't help but think that that thing will fry itself any moment.

And also not ready do downsize my rack as your did, so comes in hand-in-hand.
But a Rural King farm fan. Then SINAD won’t matter. But, no frying.
 
Last post from me on this thread, I promise. And thanks to @Rja4000 who indirectly helped, by providing me with key information on the same, which triggered the below.

I wanted to come back on the Dynamic Range, and how to compute it, with some illustrations, as I think this is interesting. For the purpose, I used a Topping D50III, which Amir reviewed. This device was measured to have a 126dB DR(CCIR-2k).
My own ADC, an E1DA Cosmos ADCiso Grade 0, is given for 129dB(A), and is fed with the Cosmos scaler, set to highest gain for that test (in stereo mode). You’ll see the below results are quite close to what Amir reported with the Topping.

The Dynamic Range is measured, per the AES standard, this way:
  • Dynamic range: This test measures the ratio of the full-scale level at the output of the EUT to the weighted noise and distortion level in the presence of a low-level signal. It includes all harmonic, inharmonic, and noise components. The test signal shall be a 997 Hz sine wave with a level of -60 dB relative to the maximum input level (see 6.2.1). The output of the EUT shall be filtered with the standard low-pass filter (see 5.2.5) and the standard notch filter (see 5.2.8), whose center frequency is set to 997 Hz. The output of the standard notch filter shall be filtered with the standard weighting filter (see 5.2.7). The rms level of the final filter output shall be measured. The dynamic range shall be the ratio of the maximum output level (see 6.2.6) to this measured level. It is reported as dB CCIR-RMS.
The above is how Amir measures the DR, with his Audio Precision. And it means the DR is computed from the SNR in the presence of low level (-60dB) signal. And so the DR = Measured SNR + 60dB. The below measurements I performed respect the above, 997Hz frequency @-60dB relative to max, notch and low-pass filter, only the weighting filter (or no filter) is changed for educational purpose.

So, let's measure the Topping, first unweighted, showing a DR of 129.7dB:
Topping D50III_DR_Unweighted.jpg


Next with the obsolete A-weighting, showing a DR of 132dB:

Topping D50III_DR_A_Weighted.jpg


You see the correction A-weigthed curve applied to the signal. It lowers low and high frequencies.

[EDIT] After the message of @jkim, I updated the cal file to better process the DR calculation.

With that CCIR-2k curve, I get 127.8dB:

1759504116160.png


Note the emphasis put at 6kHz by the CCIR curve.
So the DR of the Topping is 67.8dB + 60dB = 127.8dB. Amir found 126.4dB so I am very close, which also confirms the measurement.

I also performed the standard SINAD measurements on the Topping, and I found 123.7dB (average of the two channels), where Amir got 122.7dB and and @Rja4000 got 124.6dB. So me seeing 1dB better, in DR and SINAD than Amir, makes perfect sense.

As a matter of facts, my Cosmos Grade0 is given for 129dB(A) and 132dB(A) in mono mode. So, seeing it reports 132dB(A) in this test not only means I get there indeed, but confirmation that the Topping is a high performer, as Amir showed.


Conclusion

Vendors like the A-Weighting curve for the obvious reason it provides them with the best results. But the new standard is the CCIR-2k curve, as the AES mandates.


PS: I included the two CAL files for those using REW, for the CCIR-2k and A-weighted curves, to be used for Dynamic Range calculation only, that means with an output at -60dB compared to full scale outpu. They are limited to 20kHz, FYI.
[END EDIT]
 

Attachments

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The FLEX HT would be an option if there was a reliable HDMI solution.

I am afraid the HDFury VRROOM does not qualify, it does not properly support QMS-VRR, has bugs not present in the Vertex 2 and has not provided a software update (or fix) since 2023.

AVPs keep getting more expensive where to get balanced outs you have to pay for very large channel counts.
Receivers seem to be the best bang for the buck, but you have to go up-scale to get unbalanced outs for all channels.

- Rich
The Flex (that I've previously owned ) would still need a dolby atmos decoder and a dts-x decoder to go with that HDMI input. ;)
 
I have fond memories of my first Emotiva amp, a XP5 Gen 1.
It was genuinely good, better than some highly regarded amps, and afforded Emotiva some credibility in my eyes (though later versions seemed to go downhill).
Therefore whenever I see an Emotiva test, I always cross my fingers and hope for the best.
The reason is that there are some glimmers of hope, besides my experience with the XP5. Here are some specific examples:

The XMC-1 Gen 2 had a decent FFT by AV standards, even with HDMI input. A lot of AV gear only measures well with spdif or toslink input, and suffer with HDMI.
The XMC-1 only really fell down on linearity, which turned out to be nothing more than an obscure auto-mute function.

1759059701129.png


The XMC-2 (second sample) had good jitter and linearity performance, in the same ball park as stereo equipment, and far better than any other AV gear.
It was let down (apparently) by low frequency noise (see the RMC-1+ test) which was probably down to the bass management for the speaker configuration selected.

1759059818236.png
1759059824522.png


The original test of the original RMC-1 was a car crash, but the re-test with V1.9 firmware was transformative.
The FFT was hugely improved, and became the best AVR/AVP result of all, at the time. Jitter was a good as a stereo DAC, and far better than any Denon AVR

1759059854072.png


I get the impression that Emotiva really are trying, but their equipment sometimes takes a bit of understanding, and is often rushed to market too quickly.
There are flashes of brilliance, and I still live in hope.
 
I have fond memories of my first Emotiva amp, a XP5 Gen 1.
It was genuinely good, better than some highly regarded amps, and afforded Emotiva some credibility in my eyes (though later versions seemed to go downhill).
Therefore whenever I see an Emotiva test, I always cross my fingers and hope for the best.
The reason is that there are some glimmers of hope, besides my experience with the XP5. Here are some specific examples:

The XMC-1 Gen 2 had a decent FFT by AV standards, even with HDMI input. A lot of AV gear only measures well with spdif or toslink input, and suffer with HDMI.
The XMC-1 only really fell down on linearity, which turned out to be nothing more than an obscure auto-mute function.

View attachment 479071

The XMC-2 (second sample) had good jitter and linearity performance, in the same ball park as stereo equipment, and far better than any other AV gear.
It was let down (apparently) by low frequency noise (see the RMC-1+ test) which was probably down to the bass management for the speaker configuration selected.

View attachment 479072 View attachment 479073

The original test of the original RMC-1 was a car crash, but the re-test with V1.9 firmware was transformative.
The FFT was hugely improved, and became the best AVR/AVP result of all, at the time. Jitter was a good as a stereo DAC, and far better than any Denon AVR

View attachment 479074

I get the impression that Emotiva really are trying, but their equipment sometimes takes a bit of understanding, and is often rushed to market too quickly.
There are flashes of brilliance, and I still live in hope.

It is hard to say why they don't seem to offer consistent measured results on the bench over the years but I would guess that AVP/AVRs nowadays are complicated devices that the big dogs like Sony, Yamaha, Onkyo, D+M models would continue to be the best bet whereas Arcam, NAD, Anthem, Emotival would likely remain good options for those who are willing to do their research extensively, and avoid jumping in early at launch time. For example, most Anthem AVM owners will likely be happy but not all of the early adopters when they couldn't even use their latest ARC G at launch time, so Emo is not the only one who might have teething issues at launch time of their AVPs.
 
That is if anyone wants to buy this stuff anymore. The more I think, leads me to believe that my AV-10 is the last one in the really long row of AVRs/AVPs that I had the pleasure to own over time.

I find most recent soundtrack releases not really worth firing up 11 amps and polluting the environment. They are obviously mixed for TV use, and potentially soundbar enthusiasts.

The old saying says it right: Garbage in - garbage out. Even if you own $100K system.
 
I have fond memories of my first Emotiva amp, a XP5 Gen 1.
It was genuinely good, better than some highly regarded amps, and afforded Emotiva some credibility in my eyes (though later versions seemed to go downhill).
Therefore whenever I see an Emotiva test, I always cross my fingers and hope for the best.
The reason is that there are some glimmers of hope, besides my experience with the XP5. Here are some specific examples:

The XMC-1 Gen 2 had a decent FFT by AV standards, even with HDMI input. A lot of AV gear only measures well with spdif or toslink input, and suffer with HDMI.
The XMC-1 only really fell down on linearity, which turned out to be nothing more than an obscure auto-mute function.

View attachment 479071

The XMC-2 (second sample) had good jitter and linearity performance, in the same ball park as stereo equipment, and far better than any other AV gear.
It was let down (apparently) by low frequency noise (see the RMC-1+ test) which was probably down to the bass management for the speaker configuration selected.

View attachment 479072 View attachment 479073

The original test of the original RMC-1 was a car crash, but the re-test with V1.9 firmware was transformative.
The FFT was hugely improved, and became the best AVR/AVP result of all, at the time. Jitter was a good as a stereo DAC, and far better than any Denon AVR

View attachment 479074

I get the impression that Emotiva really are trying, but their equipment sometimes takes a bit of understanding, and is often rushed to market too quickly.
There are flashes of brilliance, and I still live in hope.
I have owned the XMC2 since 2018 and regardless of these test results and general opinion, have been enjoying watching movies for the past 7 years.

For 2 channel music listening, I had to use it for over 5 years until I got a dedicated 2 channel preamp and DAC. It’s been good enough all that time until I found a reasonable 2 channel solution.

I think from a practical standpoint, I wouldn’t mind seeing what the difference would be if I got an AV20 or AV10. Am I gonna enjoy the movie more? Would it be as good as my 2 channel system? I really don’t think it’d be worth spending $8000 to swap out my processor that I got for $1800 7 years ago.
 
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Last post from me on this thread, I promise. And thanks to @Rja4000 who indirectly helped, by providing me with key information on the same, which triggered the below.

I wanted to come back on Dynamic Range, and how to compute it, with some illustrations too as this is interesting, I think. For the purpose, I used a Topping D50III, which Amir reviewed. This device was measured to have a 126dB DR. My own ADC does not go that deep, as it's not a High End Audio Precision, but the below results are still relevant.

The Dynamic Range is measured, per the AES standard, this way:
  • Dynamic range: This test measures the ratio of the full-scale level at the output of the EUT to the weighted noise and distortion level in the presence of a low-level signal. It includes all harmonic, inharmonic, and noise components. The test signal shall be a 997 Hz sine wave with a level of -60 dB relative to the maximum input level (see 6.2.1). The output of the EUT shall be filtered with the standard low-pass filter (see 5.2.5) and the standard notch filter (see 5.2.8), whose center frequency is set to 997 Hz. The output of the standard notch filter shall be filtered with the standard weighting filter (see 5.2.7). The rms level of the final filter output shall be measured. The dynamic range shall be the ratio of the maximum output level (see 6.2.6) to this measured level. It is reported as dB CCIR-RMS.
The above is how Amir measures the DR, with his Audio Precision. From the above, it means the DR is computed from the SNR in the presence of low level (-60dBr) signal. And so the DR = Measured SNR + 60dB. The below measurements I performed respect the above, 997Hz frequency @-60dB relative to max, notch and low-pass filter, only the weighting filter (or no filter) is changed for educational purpose.

So, let's measure the Topping, first unweighted, showing a DR of 129.7dB:

View attachment 478501

Next with the obsolete A-weighting, showing a DR of 132dB::

View attachment 478503

You see the correction A-weigthed curve applied to the signal. It lowers low and high frequencies.

And last, with the CCIR-2k curve, which should be used, and that gives me 122.4dB:

View attachment 478506

Note the emphasis put at 6kHz by the CCIR curve.

For the record, Amir found 126dB of Dynamic range for the Topping (balanced output), so my interface is shy of 4dB compared to the AP, which is reasonable at this very low level.
As a matter of facts, my Cosmos Grade0 is given for 129dB(A) and 132dB(A) in mono mode. So, seeing it reports 132dB(A) in this test not only means I get there indeed, but confirmation that the Topping goes below that, as Amir showed.


Conclusion

Vendors like the A-Weighting curve for the obvious reason it provides them with the best results. But the new standard is the CCIR curve, as the AES mandates.


PS: I included the two CAL files for those using REW, for the CCIR and A-weighted curves. I created them with my AI best friend and checked it did no go rogue (it did for the A-weighted curve, too many prompts were necessary to make it right, it would have been faster to do it myself :facepalm: ). They are limited to 20kHz, FYI.
A-weighting is supposed to mimic the response or sensitivity of the human ear to noise. Its supposed to say, "This is the noise you'll hear when listening to this product" spectrum. We do not hear noise well at lower frequencies, hence the observed response at the lower ends of the measurement spectrum.
 
Costs a lot, could be better, seems a bit shoddy.
 
A-weighting is supposed to mimic the response or sensitivity of the human ear to noise. Its supposed to say, "This is the noise you'll hear when listening to this product" spectrum. We do not hear noise well at lower frequencies, hence the observed response at the lower ends of the measurement spectrum.
CCIR better represents human sensitivity to noise. A-weighting is ancient, less accurate but provides better numbers, hence why vendors still use it.
The AES mandates CCIR weighting for DR calculation.
 
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