Emotiva RMC-1+ AV Processor Review

[RichB]

I had asked Keith of Emotiva why SINAD wasn't a legitimate measurement when testing equipment. Here's his answer.

It's not exactly that SINAD is "invalid" as that it is non-standard for this purpose...
SINAD itself is traditionally used to measure radio gear and not audio gear.
This means that you won't find SINAD specs on an audio gear manufacturer's spec sheet... or in any other review or test of audio gear.
(It is actually possible to perform a calculation to "convert" SINAD to the more traditional THD+N that most audio companies use - but most of us aren't going to bother.)

The result is that, for better or worse, the only place where you can find SINAD measurements on other gear to compare to the ones in the review you're reading is on Amir's site.
You could call this an issue - since it prevents you from directly comparing Amir's test result to anyone else's...
Or you could call it "a feature" - because, once you read one of Amir's reviews, it forces you to go back to Amir's site to see comparable results on other pieces of gear...
Either way Amir has chosen to use, as his "main metric" for comparing equipment, something that no other audio reviewer or manufacturer that I know of uses.
(This is an excellent ploy from the point of view of "viewer retention" - so I'm assuming that it's intentional rather than simply a failure to follow industry standards.)

This is not accurate. Benchmark has a conversion tool and Audioholics includes SINAD.
I posted a link to this tool on the Emotiva site.

THD to dB - convert percent % to decibels dB percentage voltage % vs per cent converter THD+N total harmonic distortions calculation signal distortion factor attenuation in dB to distortion factor k in percent decibel damping - sengpielaudio Sengpiel

Calculate THD and distortions decibels dB to percentage % per cent percent voltage % vs converter and dB signal distortion THD+N total harmonic distortions factor attenuation damping - Eberhard Sengpiel sengpielaudio

sengpielaudio.com

There are not that many sites measuring gear, but it is not a difficult to convert to THD+N.

- Rich

 

[PristineSound]

I had asked Keith of Emotiva why SINAD wasn't a legitimate measurement when testing equipment. Here's his answer.

It's not exactly that SINAD is "invalid" as that it is non-standard for this purpose...
SINAD itself is traditionally used to measure radio gear and not audio gear.
This means that you won't find SINAD specs on an audio gear manufacturer's spec sheet... or in any other review or test of audio gear.
(It is actually possible to perform a calculation to "convert" SINAD to the more traditional THD+N that most audio companies use - but most of us aren't going to bother.)

The result is that, for better or worse, the only place where you can find SINAD measurements on other gear to compare to the ones in the review you're reading is on Amir's site.
You could call this an issue - since it prevents you from directly comparing Amir's test result to anyone else's...
Or you could call it "a feature" - because, once you read one of Amir's reviews, it forces you to go back to Amir's site to see comparable results on other pieces of gear...
Either way Amir has chosen to use, as his "main metric" for comparing equipment, something that no other audio reviewer or manufacturer that I know of uses.
(This is an excellent ploy from the point of view of "viewer retention" - so I'm assuming that it's intentional rather than simply a failure to follow industry standards.)

What a load of BS.

Discrediting the use of SINAD does not discredit THD+N, they are the same exact thing with different units of measure. And their THD+N sucks.

This reply is all meant for the non technical consumer, who don't understand what they read but the verbiage gives an illusion that Emotiva is making some sense and so they eat it up. This is no different than disinformation, disinformation provides some scientific and sensible plausibility, but knowing the mass aren't experts, the wording is enough throw confusion and doubts on the facts.

This is why people needs to educate themselves, it insulates you from this kind of nonsense.

 

[RichB]

Here are some better-quality images of the Emotiva Measurements.

Frequency Response

Intermodulation

1kHz FFT

SINAD A-Weighted

SINAD Unweighted

THD+N

- Rich

 

[peng]

All true. But can't say that Marantz AVPs don't run cool which brings me a peace of mind. I am picky and ready to pay for it, but the heat out of my 6700H in pre-amp mode is just freaking me out. I can't help but think that that thing will fry itself any moment.

And also not ready do downsize my rack as your did, so comes in hand-in-hand.

Oh yeah running cool is good, I don't know why the AV10 runs cool, there isn't something in their marketing info on that, surprisingly lol, even my previous Denon AVR, AV8801, AV7705 ran quite warm and those have few channels, older HDMI board obviously.

 

[peng]

Here are some better-quality images of the Emotiva Measurements.

Frequency Response
View attachment 478350

Intermodulation
View attachment 478351

1kHz FFT
View attachment 478352

SINAD A-Weighted
View attachment 478353

SINAD Unweighted
View attachment 478354

THD+N
View attachment 478355

- Rich

Who took those measurements again? The results seem quite good.

 

[NTTY]

I had asked Keith of Emotiva why SINAD wasn't a legitimate measurement when testing equipment. Here's his answer.

It's not exactly that SINAD is "invalid" as that it is non-standard for this purpose...
SINAD itself is traditionally used to measure radio gear and not audio gear.
This means that you won't find SINAD specs on an audio gear manufacturer's spec sheet... or in any other review or test of audio gear.
(It is actually possible to perform a calculation to "convert" SINAD to the more traditional THD+N that most audio companies use - but most of us aren't going to bother.)

0.001% THD+N = 20log(0.00001)=-100dB and SINAD seing the opposite of THD+N, then it is 100dB in this exemple.

ALL vendors, suppliers, makers, have been providing THD+N values for decades.
Eg dinosaur Philips TDA1541A 16bits DAC: typical THD+N = -95dB, ie SINAD = 95dB.

I wonder…

 

[NTTY]

Who took those measurements again? The results seem quite good.

It’s roughly 15bits resolution.

 

[NicS]

In

I had asked Keith of Emotiva why SINAD wasn't a legitimate measurement when testing equipment. Here's his answer.

It's not exactly that SINAD is "invalid" as that it is non-standard for this purpose...
SINAD itself is traditionally used to measure radio gear and not audio gear.
This means that you won't find SINAD specs on an audio gear manufacturer's spec sheet... or in any other review or test of audio gear.
(It is actually possible to perform a calculation to "convert" SINAD to the more traditional THD+N that most audio companies use - but most of us aren't going to bother.)

The result is that, for better or worse, the only place where you can find SINAD measurements on other gear to compare to the ones in the review you're reading is on Amir's site.
You could call this an issue - since it prevents you from directly comparing Amir's test result to anyone else's...
Or you could call it "a feature" - because, once you read one of Amir's reviews, it forces you to go back to Amir's site to see comparable results on other pieces of gear...
Either way Amir has chosen to use, as his "main metric" for comparing equipment, something that no other audio reviewer or manufacturer that I know of uses.
(This is an excellent ploy from the point of view of "viewer retention" - so I'm assuming that it's intentional rather than simply a failure to follow industry standards.)

Here's what I take from this....

SINAD is a way to represent measurements of audio equipment that characterizes the implementation of audio technology in a narrowly focussed, objective fashion. Which is likely why the traditional audio industry steers clear of it. From a marketing perspective, what company would want to use a system that would make their gear look like it's underperforming? SINAD may not be a perfect form of rating, but it seems to work, at least for this community.

Things have changed substantially in the audio enthusiast world. I used to regularly visit The Cornflake Shop inLondon SoHo; a great audio dealer with a wide range of equipment and a varied series of listening rooms. I would go and listen to the equipment I owned in combination with equipment I was thinking of purchasing. That was how I made my decisions. That world is pretty much gone now. My purchasing is now made on the basis of searching internet reviews and auditioning at home. Which is why I've found ASR so useful. ASR has guided my purchasing decisions based on objective, albeit narrowly focussed testing.

Having a baseline comparison between different pieces of similar equipment is useful. ASR fills that role very well. It does not mean that I take advice from ASR exclusively, but generally equipment that reviews well on ASR, reviews well elsewhere. If anything I think ASR helps content creators who have a more subjective approach at least consider reviewing equipment outside the traditional clutch of audiophile manufacturers. ASR also helps tear down some of the outlandish claims made by some of the purveyors of audio Woo-Woo.

Keith's job is to help keep Emotiva fans happy. He's an informative and knowledgeable person. But he has a job to do. His beef with using SINAD as a way to rate the quality of a piece off audio gear would not be as strong had Emotiva done better in testing. And Emotiva's reaction to Amir's review is not isolated, but another cut in Emotivas reputation, adding to customer complaints of unreliability, patchy performance, unrealized specifications, promises of firmware fixes that never arrive etc etc. All this is well documented and I can personally attest to it.

I'd like to say this again: I REALLY like the people at Emotiva. They appear to be doing the best they can and care about their customers. There is a little bit of cult vibe in their forum, sometime verging on the irrational and aggressive. But in the past decade I've used their gear, particularly their AV processors, enjoyed some great movies and suffered the many pitfalls of being an Emotiva owner, from a usability perspective. But I'm still here. Wishing them well. Hoping that they overcome these obstacles and be the success they deserve to be. It's just not going to happen if they go full-cult and just ignore the ASR community.

 

[peng]

0.001% THD+N = 20log(0.00001)=-100dB and SINAD seing the opposite of THD+N, then it is 100dB in this exemple.

ALL vendors, suppliers, makers, have been providing THD+N values for decades.
Eg dinosaur Philips TDA1541A 16bits DAC: typical THD+N = -95dB, ie SINAD = 95dB.

I wonder…

Obviously..., and I also wonder, what are the academic qualifications (not that it is important, just curious) of Keith or his design team, I would think any EE, ET would know it is easy to convert THD+N to SINAD, and there is no need to anyway if Keith would use their THD+N in the log scale, using dB with a minus sign, but I guess they live in the % world. Actually they seem (may be I misread) to be omitting THD+N in their AVP specs now, for whatever reasons.

 

[peng]

I'd like to say this again: I REALLY like the people at Emotiva. They appear to be doing the best they can and care about their customers. There is a little bit of cult vibe in their forum, sometime verging on the irrational and aggressive.

So it may just be the forum, if so, it would sound a little like Anthem's (on AVSF) ...

 

[Oddball]

Well, obviously Keit and the team have a tough sell to make. I would advise all members to go Marantz in this price range though. Their AVPs just work. No bugs or anything special to make them work. And no need for Keith or anyone else.

 

[Oddball]

Oh yeah running cool is good, I don't know why the AV10 runs cool, there isn't something in their marketing info on that, surprisingly lol, even my previous Denon AVR, AV8801, AV7705 ran quite warm and those have few channels, older HDMI board obviously.

It's like 25-30 C after 8 hours of abuse. The later without AC. I do use only one HDMI for Apple TV, the other one for BD player is mostly inactive.

 

[NTTY]

Here's what I take from this....

Let me help restoring the truth.

SINAD is a way to represent measurements of audio equipment that characterizes the implementation of audio technology in a narrowly focussed, objective fashion.

As the whole audio industry has been doing since THD+N was introduced to characterize the quality of most audio device. SINAD is only the reciprocal of THD+N expressed in dB.

Which is likely why the traditional audio industry steers clear of it.

They don’t, they use THD+N, which is the same.

From a marketing perspective, what company would want to use a system that would make their gear look like it's underperforming? SINAD may not be a perfect form of rating, but it seems to work, at least for this community.

It is one of many ways to rate a device and is as valid as THD+N since it is the same. Few ancient devices would look bad measured this way, such as a tape deck.

(…)
Wishing them well. Hoping that they overcome these obstacles and be the success they deserve to be. It's just not going to happen if they go full-cult and just ignore the ASR community.

Problem is they don’t ignore but comment wrongly/badly.

 

[masterhw]

Arguing that 0.00155% is somehow more readable than 96dB is a losing argument any day lol.

 

[RichB]

Who took those measurements again? The results seem quite good.

Posted on the Emotiva forum by Lonnie, VP/CTO.

- Rich

 

[Oddball]

I must admit that my defining time at this whole audio thing as a tape deck. Sony Walkman was the thing that made music available on the go and has changed my world all around.

Not much to do with the post but I guess everything what needed to be said was said.

 

[PristineSound]

Posted on the Emotiva forum by Lonnie, VP/CTO.

- Rich

It's uncertain if this Lonnie guy even has a technical background. Linkedin does not show much technical background for this guy. Maybe he was just a sales guy who worked his way up and somehow landed in a CTO role?

 

[NTTY]

Obviously..., and I also wonder, what are the academic qualifications (not that it is important, just curious) of Keith or his design team, I would think any EE, ET would know it is easy to convert THD+N to SINAD, and there is no need to anyway if Keith would use their THD+N in the log scale, using dB with a minus sign, but I guess they live in the % world. Actually they seem (may be I misread) to be omitting THD+N in their AVP specs now, for whatever reasons.

The person who wrote was was quoted by @Cogito does not have the basic understanding of what is the SINAD. So, one can argue that using THD+N in dB would be better since it’s been largely used for decades. Why not. But the obvious confusion with a linear representation of it, in %, can’t be from someone who understands the equivalence between THD+N and SINAD.
Assuming that it’s confusing to use SINAD and that people have to come to Amir’s site to compare measurements of SINAD between devices, is just a big misunderstanding.

Maybe some people like to see many 0 when THD+N is expressed in percentage, but that is confusing, too many numbers. Expressing in dB is better, provided we understand that 6dB difference means twice more or twice less.

So a THD+N of -90dB means twice more distorsion and noise than -96dB. THD+N of -106dB is twice less than -100dB.
Now the same in %: THD+N of 0.0032% means twice more than 0.0016%. THD+N of 0.0005% is twice less than 0.001%. It’s obviously twice more or less, true.

But, the interest of the SINAD is that it eases computing the effective number of bits of a device, since ENOB = (SINAD - 1.76) / 6.02
And talking dB makes things way easier. 6dB less of SINAD then roughly 1bit lost. 6dB more then 1 more bit of resolution. Way easier.

If I say I have a THD+N of 0.00186%, do I immediately get that I don’t have CD resolution? Me not, and that’s why I rely on THD+N in dB (or SINAD, being the exact same thing).

 

[PristineSound]

Obviously..., and I also wonder, what are the academic qualifications (not that it is important, just curious)

It is very important, unlike non technical jobs, technical jobs with deep knowledge requires deep training and hands on experience.

I have only ever encountered one true legit EE who didn't have a bachelor's in EE, but he was tinkering in his parents basement since he was 12, got a job as an electronics technician when he was 16. He used to make custom bespoke RF and IR remote controls for the ultra wealthy back in the 90's.

 

[peng]

I have only ever encountered one true legit EE who didn't have a bachelor's in EE, but he was tinkering in his parents basement since he was 12, got a job as an electronics technician when he was 16. He used to make custom bespoke RF and IR remote controls for the ultra wealthy back in the 90's.

That's why I said it wasn't important, being polite and make allowance for exceptions obviously. I know quite a few non degreed individuals who have excellent knowledge in EE principles/concepts and also enough, unfortunately degreed individuals who somehow even managed to graduate with 1st class honors, but not really have good enough understanding of some important concepts/EE principles, especially in the field of power systems, control systems, and communications (telecommunication that is). So again, I thought it would be fair to make allowance for exceptional cases, but in general I do agree with you.