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I purchased the XMC-1 with the promised of delivering the HDMI 2.0 board upgrade in the next 3 months and took 18 months for Emotiva to fulfill the promise. Then 12 more months of beta testing firmwares for the HDMI board. Then they released the XMC-2 and I had the opportunity to trade in my XMC-1 for the XMC-2 paying only $600 but I passed on the offer and sold the XMC-1 for $1600. Avoid Emotiva at any cost.
The funny thing is, apparently some people went for those AVP because of their perceived value, but there are the likes of AV20, AVM70, that offers practically as many channel and processing capabilities and if 11 to 13 channels are enough, the could get much better value in AVRs such as the AVR-X3800H, Cinema 50 (preamp mode), RZ30 and a few others that would give people better peace of mind in terms less chance to seek support/warranty service etc.
Thanks.
So that's actually a little worse than what Amir reported, but exact same overall behavior and performances.
DR is A-weighted (20Hz-20kHz), a CD player fed with 16bits PCM does better.
By the look of the FFT, and FFT length that shows 32k, I guess the system was fed with 192kHz sampling rate signal (look at the thickness of the 1kHz bottom trace), instead of 44.1kHz that Amir does, but that's the only change. It's a smart change though, because that spreads quantization noise over a wider bandwidth and so it improves the total computed noise.
I still don't understand the visually elevated noise floor, with the same FFT length (32k), Window (AP_Equiripple) and 4 averages. This looks worse than what Amir showed.
The below is undithered 1005.33Hz @0dBFS PCM 16bits at 192kHz sampling rate, 32k FFT (Blackman-Harris 7 window), 4 averages:
See that the Software computes SNR or 105.1dB, meaning a DR of 105.1dB with that full scale signal (0dBFS). I used the same vertical span (-160dB to +40dB) as EMOTIVA, so it shows the same way, but that's an unusual way of representing an FFT result. Note the wide bottom of the FFT trace of the main tone.
If do the same with 16bits but 44.1kHz instead of 192kHz, then I get:
Total noise is higher because quantization errors now spread over 22kHz instead of 96kHz. The DR is still computed at 98.7dB unweighted, it would be few dB higher with A-Weighting, roughly 101dB. Thinner bottom of the main tone, because same FFT length over narrower bandwidth.
So what they show (besides what Amir already did) is less resolution than Audio CD.
My guess is that there is low resolution DSP or something (ASRC maybe) on the digital path.
It is difficult to read due to the horrible quality photos, but they are clearly using A-weighting and a slightly lower bandwidth (20-20K vs 10-22K). It also looks like they have the generator set to 400 Hz, although their photo of the FFT itself shows 1 kHz.
My guess is the 89 dB vs 96 dB is entirely due to A-weighting and slightly lower bandwidth.
It's disgusting when your product reviews like crap, you attack the reviewer and their credibility showing half ass bench test without providing the parameters.
I was considering a AV processor from emotiva, but not anymore, not just because of poor performance but for lack of value. For a company that sells direct, I don't see any value in their products, this AV processor is how much, no thanks.
The funny thing is, apparently some people went for those AVP because of their perceived value, but there are the likes of AV20, AVM70, that offers practically as many channel and processing capabilities and if 11 to 13 channels are enough, the could get much better value in AVRs such as the AVR-X3800H, Cinema 50 (preamp mode), RZ30 and a few others that would give people better peace of mind in terms less chance to seek support/warranty service etc.
As noted, not much value in AVPs - perhaps until you get to Trinnov. 3800H is a a value powerhouse and MVP of the AVR world. Too bad that getting 2 more channels and wides costs as much as upgrading to 6800H or even worse C30.
Looking back, I continue to love my AV-10, if for nothing else, then the heat management. It is really a cool cat all around. Probably a steep price to pay for the preferences, but it does really work.
Also dialed back my Brystons a bit as realized that they don't really need so much gain and bias. They are still not cool part of the rack, but they do blend in better with the AV-10 and Rotels.
But the FFT trace is probably done with a higher sampling rate. The main tone looks to be a little over 1000Hz, by the way, with an odd frequency, like 1005.33Hz for instance. This would have the positive effect to spread quantization noise over frequency too, generating much more unique PCM sub-codes. But well, it does not change the results of Amir's review.
I like to see more products using high-quality switching power supplies in their products.
Transformers can hum, are less efficient, and make increase the product weight.
Thanks. Do these guys really not know how to take a screen grab in Windows??? They have to take a picture with a phone and post that? From a curved monitor no less? And they say I don't know how to use their product?
I genuinely believe that there is a fundamental disconnect between these camps.
I posted this on the Emotiva Forum and it was very well received, even by Emotiva staff.
Yes, but actually Amir is not testing AVR or receivers.
He is testing these devices to ascertain baseline 2 channel DAC performance using a SINAD scale that can be easily converted to THD.
Calculate THD and distortions decibels dB to percentage % per cent percent voltage % vs converter and dB signal distortion THD+N total harmonic distortions factor attenuation damping - Eberhard Sengpiel sengpielaudio
sengpielaudio.com
Reference stereo is used to test the DAC and but not the DSP processing.
I won't argue that it is fair or even close to comprehensive for a complex AVP/AVR, because it is not.
The RMC-1+ was tested as a 2-channel DAC without DSP processing. Performance issues were found that do not appear in other AVP products.
Last time, Emotiva attempted to replicate the issue, found a bug, issued new firmware, sent it to Amir, Amir updated the review.
This exchange seemed to benefit Emotiva.
As an optimist, I seek a similar result this time round.
I encourage Emotiva to post their measurements and to reach out.
Two simple recommendations.
1. post crosstalk results to see if this is an anomaly, and if not check for a firmware fix (as there was last time).
2. Consider exposing a Linear Phase Fast reconstruction filter, as have Denon/Marantz. BTW, Marantz cant get past their "sound" so recommends the fast filter for measurements only. Good grief.
Looks like Reference Stereo is an incorrect way to measure this unit. It bypasses output D/A section with relays, so you were only measuring its toslink D/A conversion, not the full digital path that is used in a typical home theater usage. So this review is not "compatible" with your other AVP/AVR reviews.
Reference Stero is the correct method to measure the RMC-1+ to other units.
The DAC is used (of course) and the DSP processing is disengaged.
This established the baseline performance that can be compared to other AVR/AVP/DACs.
Reference Stero is the correct method to measure the RMC-1+ to other units.
The DAC is used (of course) and the DSP processing is disengaged.
This established the baseline performance that can be compared to other AVR/AVP/DACs.
OK, then it's just pretty bad performing unit. I wonder if it gets even worse when DSP processing/HDMI/movie audio is used? That is never(?) tested by Amir.
I genuinely believe that there is a fundamental disconnect between these camps.
I posted this on the Emotiva Forum and it was very well received, even by Emotiva staff.
The RMC-1+ was tested as a 2-channel DAC without DSP processing. Performance issues were found that do not appear in other AVP products.
2. Consider exposing a Linear Phase Fast reconstruction filter, as have Denon/Marantz. BTW, Marantz cant get past their "sound" so recommends the fast filter for measurements only. Good grief.
- Rich
[/QUOTE]
DSP processing is essential, so wish that that was an add-on test as we don't use AVRs/AVPs without DSP.
If you can tell with high level of confidence, in a blind test, difference between Marantz 1 and 2 filters, than all the glory to you. My aging ears are not that sharp and "think" I can hear the difference without the blind test, but just barely.
I genuinely believe that there is a fundamental disconnect between these camps.
I posted this on the Emotiva Forum and it was very well received, even by Emotiva staff.
Yes, but actually Amir is not testing AVR or receivers.
He is testing these devices to ascertain baseline 2 channel DAC performance using a SINAD scale that can be easily converted to THD.
Calculate THD and distortions decibels dB to percentage % per cent percent voltage % vs converter and dB signal distortion THD+N total harmonic distortions factor attenuation damping - Eberhard Sengpiel sengpielaudio
sengpielaudio.com
Reference stereo is used to test the DAC and but not the DSP processing.
I won't argue that it is fair or even close to comprehensive for a complex AVP/AVR, because it is not.
The RMC-1+ was tested as a 2-channel DAC without DSP processing. Performance issues were found that do not appear in other AVP products.
Last time, Emotiva attempted to replicate the issue, found a bug, issued new firmware, sent it to Amir, Amir updated the review.
This exchange seemed to benefit Emotiva.
As an optimist, I seek a similar result this time round.
- Rich
[/quote]
I encourage Emotiva to post their measurements and to reach out.
Two simple recommendations.
1. post crosstalk results to see if this is an anomaly, and if not check for a firmware fix (as there was last time).
2. Consider exposing a Linear Phase Fast reconstruction filter, as have Denon/Marantz. BTW, Marantz cant get past their "sound" so recommends the fast filter for measurements only. Good grief.
- Rich
[/QUOTE]
I have been to the Emotiva website many times before and they never impressed me with the way they specified products. For one thing, they don't seem keen on telling which DAC, OPA, volume control ICs they use. Even Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Arcam and sometimes Yamaha would disclose some if not most of such information. I have also found nothing they indicate they their engineering team have strong technical/academic background. They way they seem to complain about using SINAD as a metric is shocking! It should be easy for people with some technical knowledge, no need to be an engineer or technician, to understand SINAD and THD+N both tell the same thing except it is easy to argue that SINAD, or THD+N expressed in dB is a better to express, than THD+N in %. ASR/Amir has explained this well in the past, but I can understand Emo and their fans may not bother reading those things on ASR lol..
That is not to say I doubt the performance of Emo products, as they are no longer a young company, so as long as they select decent parts and components, and assemble them well, they can certainly produce decent products at competitive price as they have been around for a very long time already, so they do have tons of experience, as long as they learnt well from such experience.
The HT world is quite expensive with limited choices. To get top quality we would have to spend over $6k at least. To get in the blue area....forget about it ($10K and above). I don't include the minidsp Flex as a HT prepro or receiver - it's basically a crossover with Dirac if you pay for the license.
The HT world is quite expensive with limited choices. To get top quality we would have to spend over $6k at least. To get in the blue area....forget about it ($10K and above). I don't include the minidsp Flex as a HT prepro or receiver - it's basically a crossover with Dirac if you pay for the license.
The FLEX HT would be an option if there was a reliable HDMI solution.
I am afraid the HDFury VRROOM does not qualify, it does not properly support QMS-VRR, has bugs not present in the Vertex 2 and has not provided a software update (or fix) since 2023.
AVPs keep getting more expensive where to get balanced outs you have to pay for very large channel counts.
Receivers seem to be the best bang for the buck, but you have to go up-scale to get unbalanced outs for all channels.
As noted, not much value in AVPs - perhaps until you get to Trinnov. 3800H is a a value powerhouse and MVP of the AVR world. Too bad that getting 2 more channels and wides costs as much as upgrading to 6800H or even worse C30.
Looking back, I continue to love my AV-10, if for nothing else, then the heat management. It is really a cool cat all around. Probably a steep price to pay for the preferences, but it does really work.
Also dialed back my Brystons a bit as realized that they don't really need so much gain and bias. They are still not cool part of the rack, but they do blend in better with the AV-10 and Rotels.
As far as why people even bother going for their AVPs, I guess many people are prone, or to be polite, to marketing information, so if there are enough in their marketing info that gives seemingly good reasons why their products would "sound better..", they those, especially the subjective type would be tempted to go for their products that are typically priced well relative to the bigger names. Examples of the marketing info that are effective in giving people reasons for better sound are pretty, examples: super high and/or variable refresh rate, 8K vs 4 K, and on the audio side, Marantz HDAMs/discrete OPAs, soundmaster tuned, warm, musical sound, tube like sound, NAD's, Crownaudios (in the past anyway) super high Damping factor, McIntosh's autoformer, Sony's 360 degree.., Anthem's ARC G, and their AVM90's so called more "advanced audio circuitry" (isn't it smart to just say "more advanced"), and Denon's soundmaster tuned for punchier sound, so better for movies etc.etc., the list can go for a mile. Mostly BS, but surely such could/would easily appear to be great reasons for those looking for electronic devices that they think would lead to better sound, as it is so easy to buy, or swap out a box, than the replace their speakers, and/or spending hours trying to fine tune their room correction/eq post calibration.
Marketing rule, if done well and smartly, even engineers (except the real ones, might fall for marketing info too!
As far as why people even bother going for their AVPs, I guess many people are prone, or to be polite, to marketing information, so if there are enough in their marketing info that gives seemingly good reasons why their products would "sound better..", they those, especially the subjective type would be tempted to go for their products that are typically priced well relative to the bigger names. Examples of the marketing info that are effective in giving people reasons for better sound are pretty, examples: super high and/or variable refresh rate, 8K vs 4 K, and on the audio side, Marantz HDAMs/discrete OPAs, soundmaster tuned, warm, musical sound, tube like sound, NAD's, Crownaudios (in the past anyway) super high Damping factor, McIntosh's autoformer, Sony's 360 degree.., Anthem's ARC G, and their AVM90's so called more "advanced audio circuitry" (isn't it smart to just say "more advanced"), and Denon's soundmaster tuned for punchier sound, so better for movies etc.etc., the list can go for a mile. Mostly BS, but surely such could/would easily appear to be great reasons for those looking for electronic devices that they think would lead to better sound, as it is so easy to buy, or swap out a box, than the replace their speakers, and/or spending hours trying to fine tune their room correction/eq post calibration.
Marketing rule, if done well and smartly, even engineers (except the real ones, might fall for marketing info too!
All true. But can't say that Marantz AVPs don't run cool which brings me a peace of mind. I am picky and ready to pay for it, but the heat out of my 6700H in pre-amp mode is just freaking me out. I can't help but think that that thing will fry itself any moment.
And also not ready do downsize my rack as your did, so comes in hand-in-hand.
I had asked Keith of Emotiva why SINAD wasn't a legitimate measurement when testing equipment. Here's his answer.
It's not exactly that SINAD is "invalid" as that it is non-standard for this purpose...
SINAD itself is traditionally used to measure radio gear and not audio gear.
This means that you won't find SINAD specs on an audio gear manufacturer's spec sheet... or in any other review or test of audio gear.
(It is actually possible to perform a calculation to "convert" SINAD to the more traditional THD+N that most audio companies use - but most of us aren't going to bother.)
The result is that, for better or worse, the only place where you can find SINAD measurements on other gear to compare to the ones in the review you're reading is on Amir's site.
You could call this an issue - since it prevents you from directly comparing Amir's test result to anyone else's...
Or you could call it "a feature" - because, once you read one of Amir's reviews, it forces you to go back to Amir's site to see comparable results on other pieces of gear...
Either way Amir has chosen to use, as his "main metric" for comparing equipment, something that no other audio reviewer or manufacturer that I know of uses.
(This is an excellent ploy from the point of view of "viewer retention" - so I'm assuming that it's intentional rather than simply a failure to follow industry standards.)
sengpielaudio.com
, might fall for marketing info too!
