Emotiva RMC-1 AV Processor Review

[GeorgeWalk]

I don't recall talking about SPL meters AT ALL so.... I talked about average levels as I read them in audio rags back in the day and later architectural acoustic standards that I looked up, all which don't talk about 5dB perceived noise floors, but 35-50dB room averages for home environments. Yes, you can treat a room to make it better. I'm talking normal rooms. Regardless, even if you'r 100% correct in that graph, etc., where is this noise floor I'm supposed to be hearing? I have to turn my AVR up to +8dB over reference (113dB peaks) to hear the slightest amount of hiss from the MLP. I guarantee I can't hear noise over a signal playing. That's with a lowly Marantz AVR that I'm sure if you measured would be rated mediocre just like the other D&M models.

All I'm getting at is that mediocre must sound fine to me and I have a high-end (well maybe I shouldn't really call them that as $2000/pr doesn't rate that high in the grand scheme of things, I suppose, but I listened to speakers costing quite a bit more and didn't find a pair that I liked as well until the $6000/pr range and several that cost more than that I liked less) Carver ribbon speaker setup from the 1990s I just loved for ages and until the past two years I never thought anything else would come close. Now I have PSB speakers sounding nearly as good in a home theater environment and for me, that was a win. IMO, it had more to do with the speaker arrangement (simulating more sound arrivals and arranging them to be closer to a (weak) line source arrangement (front wides and front heights are matrixed in with stereo and with a push of the mute button I can compare with and without and it focuses like a razor when I turn on the extra 4 speakers) and more room treatments, though than what receiver I'm using (compared to Carver separates gear and a custom active crossover upstairs).



I appreciate that.

Yes, but what kind of speaker cables do you have?

 

[Magnus]

Architectural noise standards are for completely different purpose (making sure you don't hear the person talking next door). But yes, ask anyone who knows anything about this topic and they will tell you things like NRC are worthless. That said, the link you provided shows more knowledge than you were conveying:

See that dashed line? That is the key to the article I wrote which I showed you. That our hearing is frequency sensitivity and as such, no single SPL number is of any significance. It is proven by fundamentals of psychoacoustics. Get it out of your vocabulary if you want to have a science based discussion.

My BASIC point (which got lost in the fray) is that 93dB SINAD doesn't typically sit in a 0dB environment. Beyond the noise floor already present in the room (however much it varies by frequency) you have masking sounds (like say the signal playing) that will make it very hard to hear whatever noise floor this Emotiva is going to generate once you turn the volume up enough to hear >93dB. In my room with a Marantz 7012, 'hiss' starts to become noticeable at +8dB above reference. It's not exactly objectionable and few things I play need turned up that loud.

AGAIN, my point is not the extremes of human hearing or debating what the average noise level is in a room relative to human hearing, but whether I can hear the noise floors or other aberrations (jitter, ultrasonics abnormalities, etc.) in the measurements you say are just plain awful. If the answer is "probably not" or even "no way" then what am I supposed to be worried about? That I "know" the box is making noise over there that the HTP-1 isn't making if I turn the volume know up 10 more dB beyond what I can stand to listen?

You keep trying to convince me I should hate this processor when the only thing that makes me REALLY hate it is the buggy software and the fact the HTP-1 is $1000 cheaper and will have DTS:X Pro eventually (who knows with this thing).

 

[Magnus]

Yes, but what kind of speaker cables do you have?

Well, downstairs, I think it's some semi-generic (can't remember the brand, might have been Amazon basics or something even) 12 gauge stuff mixed with some 20+ year old Monster XP I had leftover from the 1990s before I went to college and upstairs I believe it's Monster original (again, the '90s) 10 gauge wire on the Carvers (I wasn't going to throw it out. It's still great 10 gauge wire and wasn't quite as overpriced then as it is now).

 

[Blumlein 88]

I don't recall talking about SPL meters AT ALL so.... I talked about average levels as I read them in audio rags back in the day and later architectural acoustic standards that I looked up, all which don't talk about 5dB perceived noise floors, but 35-50dB room averages for home environments. Yes, you can treat a room to make it better. I'm talking normal rooms. Regardless, even if you'r 100% correct in that graph, etc., where is this noise floor I'm supposed to be hearing? I have to turn my AVR up to +8dB over reference (113dB peaks) to hear the slightest amount of hiss from the MLP. I guarantee I can't hear noise over a signal playing. That's with a lowly Marantz AVR that I'm sure if you measured would be rated mediocre just like the other D&M models.

All I'm getting at is that mediocre must sound fine to me and I have a high-end (well maybe I shouldn't really call them that as $2000/pr doesn't rate that high in the grand scheme of things, I suppose, but I listened to speakers costing quite a bit more and didn't find a pair that I liked as well until the $6000/pr range and several that cost more than that I liked less) Carver ribbon speaker setup from the 1990s I just loved for ages and until the past two years I never thought anything else would come close. Now I have PSB speakers sounding nearly as good in a home theater environment and for me, that was a win. IMO, it had more to do with the speaker arrangement (simulating more sound arrivals and arranging them to be closer to a (weak) line source arrangement (front wides and front heights are matrixed in with stereo and with a push of the mute button I can compare with and without and it focuses like a razor when I turn on the extra 4 speakers) and more room treatments, though than what receiver I'm using (compared to Carver separates gear and a custom active crossover upstairs).



I appreciate that.

The noise floor you hear is any portion above your threshold for a given region. EBR (effective rectangular bandwidth) gives a reasonably close match to human hearing. I find most rooms to be 35 to 50 db SPL. Higher when AC or heat is running. The area many have trouble getting below threshold is 60 hz hum and the first couple harmonics due to various appliances and such.

On the other hand, the noise of a 93 db SINAD device works the same way. Unless the number is mostly due to harmonic distortion at that level, the noise floor in regions broken up like your ear does will put the audible number well below 93 db. That is why you can put your D+M device at the max volume you'll listen, possibly still achieve 105 or 110 db SPL peaks, and still hear silence with a 93 db SINAD device.

 

[Magnus]

"You either know all, or you know nothing, so don't talk"\

Should've known he was full of it (being an EE) the moment he said his 2nd post would be his last, yet I still see him here.

Tsk. Tsk. Someone stinking up the Internet with nastiness. Who asked you anyway? Stop replying and maybe I'll do the same.

Electronics is a big field, BTW. I work in industrial automation, not audio and it's been 20 years so I'm more than a bit rusty on audio related matters, not all of which are purely electrical. That doesn't mean I don't have an interest in home audio. I took what physics classes they offered on audio at the time, which wasn't a whole lot (I still have the textbook on my bookshelf, Music, Sound and Physics I believe was the name).

 

[Tks]

Tsk. Tsk. Someone stinking up the Internet with nastiness. Who asked you anyway? Stop replying and maybe I'll do the same.

Not my forum, don't let my desires be your drivers, do or speak as much as you please.

But if I did have a stake in you replying or not further - a 'maybe' wouldn't be enough to sway me one way or another, simply due to your credibility I called into question in the post you just quoted me for.

Regardless, you seem to be having productive conversations with others. Do go on without worry of further impediment nor commentary from me.

 

[SimpleTheater]

As I understand it, Gene DellaSala, the founder and principal editor of Audioholics is both a true customer advocate with a proven track record, a learned electrical engineer with a mind for measurements...

I think Gene is a nice guy, but an apologist for the AV industry. Going back 14 years, my post on AVS forum concerning test measurements
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/671734-all-channels-driven.html

 

[andymok]

Side-track a bit.

Sometimes I wish there's a person like Amir that has the knowledge, equipment and influence to the video/monitor/TV side as well ...

 

[amirm]

Side-track a bit.

Sometimes I wish there's a person like Amir that has the knowledge, equipment and influence to the video/monitor/TV side as well ...

Well, I am that person too. I have a $10K Minolta Chroma meter. Managed development of broadcast video gear and was quite active on video side of consumer gear for years. Maybe we can expand into video some day....

 

[Blumlein 88]

Well, I am that person too. I have a $10K Minolta Chroma meter. Managed development of broadcast video gear and was quite active on video side of consumer gear for years. Maybe we can expand into video some day....

That would require a new logo. A 4 sided one for Audio Video Science Review.

 

[amirm]

Ah, forgot about the name.

 

[Tks]

Side-track a bit.

Sometimes I wish there's a person like Amir that has the knowledge, equipment and influence to the video/monitor/TV side as well ...

Oh no..

Brace yourself

 

[Doodski]

Oh no..

Brace yourself

View attachment 51922

I can imagine it. After closing a big deal for a major system asking the customer/client if they would like to get a few $5000.00 HDMI cables to top up the system and getting a, "Yes, please" reply Cha ching!

 

[oldsysop]

"hat is one way of looking at things... but I would say it's probably not the best way.

When you purchase audio equipment you are purchasing it to listen to (at least that's true for most of us).

The only reason to look at the measurements would be if they told you something that would enable you to make a better purchasing decision.
(Do you really sit down and pore over the specifications of the car you already own after you buy it?.)
So, if the numbers don't actually tell you how something is going to sound, then they really serve no purpose at all.

As KlineMJ says, we've sold a lot of RMC's so far, and I don't recall anyone saying that they sound anything other than superb.
Most people who own an RMC-1, or an XMC-2, agree that they sound noticeably better than our competitors products... even ones that cost twice as much or more.
And, yes, most people who've actually heard them agree that, contrary to what some folks would have you believe, different models and brands actually do sound quite different.
And, yes, we're still working through a few functionality issues.
However, there doesn't seem to be much point in obsessing over numbers that quite obviously don't tell you how a piece of audio gear actually sounds."
KeithL
https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/56431/emotiva-audio-review-discussion-thread

 

[Koeitje]

Man, you are so wrong...

Just a license for a 32 channel Trinnov for immersive digital outputs, costs more than double of what you said!

Arvus converter from HDMI to AES EBU, costs 850$ for up to 7.1 channels and $2,5k for atmos decoding and 16 digital channels output..

Consumer or manufacturing pricing? If it's $2500 for 16 channels then the pr-sc5530 was an impossible product. Turns out Onkyo could build 13 channels for that price years ago. I guess they were just buying the license and build these processors for free. A 16 channel DSP is $10, even if an Atmos license makes it a 100 times more expensive it still doesn't work out.

Custom solutions beyond what IC manufacturers sell are naturally more expensive.

 

[bobbooo]

Side-track a bit.

Sometimes I wish there's a person like Amir that has the knowledge, equipment and influence to the video/monitor/TV side as well ...

Check out Vincent Teoh's reviews and YouTube channel HDTVTest - he's a professional TV and projector calibrator, really knows his stuff. Can be pretty funny at times too, in a very deadpan way.

Here's a typically wooden, amateurish intro from him. Love it.

 

[Dimifoot]

And I do remember the issue with the Oppo 105 clipping the LFE channel.
Discussion should be direct, not through cross forum copy-pasting.

 

[digicidal]

With room correction, reference levels for movies should be 0dB. Now, I can push my system that loud for the occasional scene, but I’m typically -8dB for lossy movies (cable), -12dB for lossless movies (Blu-ray) and -16dB for lossy tv (cable). I never dip to -20dB or lower unless for music/YouTube.

Just being snarky here @MZKM but that's a very valid point... there isn't any room correction on this device! Do you happen to have what levels you listen at when your processor is set to "We swear it's evenutally going to have DIRAC" mode?

That's part of what makes me so skeptical about the hundreds of users that "love the sound" - no PEQ for subs working, no DIRAC... I presume there's some manual setting for impulse control (I hope)? Even with my old Denon AVR (3810 I think it was) with Audyssey XT it sounded better after running RC... and that's the "horrible" RC that scored so poorly in the Harman tests I think. I guess everyone is using subs with built in EQ - and no one just listens to music on them? I can't listen with their ears and brain so I can't prove it's not the case - but I can extrapolate that it wouldn't be the case for me most likely based on just those two point alone... the measurements just increase the questions, not reduce them.

 

[Koeitje]

Check out Vincent Teoh's reviews and YouTube channel HDTVTest - he's a professional TV and projector calibrator, really knows his stuff. Can be pretty funny at times too, in a very deadpan way.

Here's a typically wooden, amateurish intro from him. Love it.

He is one of the best reviewers you can find, highly recommended channel.

 

[Costas EAR]

Consumer or manufacturing pricing? If it's $2500 for 16 channels then the pr-sc5530 was an impossible product.

Did the pr-something provide discrete digital outputs of immersive audio?

Please, read again what exactly i wrote.

After payment of all dolby and auro and DTS formats decoding fees for analogue outputs, and after buying a fully functional avr, if you want discrete digital outputs for these immersive formats in high resolution audio (up to 24/192 for your beloved octo DAC's) you have to pay much more than $2,5k. You buy nothing with $2,5k my friend, and that is the reason why you can not find a storm audio avr at the total cost of $3-4k, it's like you said, an "impossible product".